Elmer Ray vs...

I don't think that "racism" is necessarily the explanation for Mauriello's high ratings. After all, The Ring and Nat Fleischer don't seem that racist in their ratings through the years. I think two other factors play into it:

1-----Mauriello never went into the service, I believe, so he was always active. In 1942 he lost twice to Bivins. Bivins was the #1 contender in 1942 and 1943. But in 1944 Bivins went into the service and was removed from the rankings. Mauriello then passes him, although Tami loses to Baksi and Oma. Bivins never regains the top spot when he returns although he doesn't lose until 1946.

Bettina has the same problem. In 1941 he starts a good run at heavyweight which goes into 1942. He is ranked ahead of Tami in 1941. But in the summer of 1942 he apparently goes into the service, although I can't be certain what happened. Bettina lays off one year and drops out of the ratings. He returns in 1943 and loses to Bivins, but goes on a run and at the end of 1944 is the #1 contender. Apparently he goes into the service, or back into the service, and loses his ranking. Tami passes him, and when Bettina comes back, like Bivins, he never regains his ranking.

2-----Mauriello was a New York fighter, always a big advantage in the ratings. The Ring was located in New York and so the staff saw NY fights, and frankly, I think had that old New York arrogance, (you know, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere, type baloney)

So the bottom line for me, Bivins and Bettina had better records from 1942 to 1945 but ended up behind Tami more often than not, mainly because of lay offs I think caused by war service.

Baksi also defeated Mauriello and this loss was never reversed. But Baksi was erratic enough that he also fell far behind Tami in the ratings.

For me, Mauriello was consistent, but I think the best white heavyweights coming out of the wartime era were Bettina and Baksi, with Lesnevich also in the hunt. Hindsight is 20/20, but with my hindsight I think Mauriello was rather lucky to be rated so highly. He lost to Lesnevich and Baksi, and never fought Bettina, and all of these men beat him or beat better opponents.

And none of this deals with Mauriello never beating any of the top black fighters.

 

Within the past few weeks, I found that Jack Hurley and Tommy O'Loughlin, a manager of Charley Burley and Elmer Ray, were quite close and often worked with each other over a number of decades. Keeping that in mind, Hurley acted as a matchmaker at the Marigold Gardens in Chicago from the late 1930s to the late 1940s. The Marigold group, of which Hurley was a partner, staged some big shows at the Chicago Coliseum for about a couple of years before eventually staging other big shows at Chicago Stadium for much of the 1940s. Hurley used Ray a number times at Marigold Gardens and Chicago Stadium, but never used Burley at either venue.

- Chuck Johnston

 

For someone who criticizes lastarzas high rating, I’m surprised you don’t do the same with muariello.


Mauriello high rating was completely manufactured by defeating a few top white contenders while drawing the color line.

Of course he was going to be rated higher than ray when he refused to fight ray and he was white while ray was black.

At least ray had the balls to put his number 1 rating on the line against Walcott. Mauriello got his number 1 rating by defeating overrated euro woodcock while avoiding Bivins, Murray, Ray, walcott. He also avoided Thompson, shepherd, toles and Bobo in 1942-1943.

Baksi and Savold weren’t afraid to fight top black men and they suffered because of it. Mauriello drew the color line like lastarza and it paid off for him



After he loss to number 1 rated Bivins, he didn’t fight another top black contender until getting a title shot vs Louis.

After losing to Bivins, Mauriello surpassed Bivins on the rankings in 1944 despite never defeating Bivins in a rematch or beating someone who beat Bivins.

Baksi beat Mauriello in 1944, then lost his higher rating for taking on a top black fighter in Walcott and Losing. While Mauriello padded his record against white opposition and didn’t lose his rating.

Despite black men flocking the top of the ratings 1942-1946 Mauriello never defeated ANY of them

1942 Ratings

Champion Joe Louis

1. Jimmy Bivins
2. Tami Mauriello
3. Turkey Thompson
4. Roscoe Toles
5. Harry Bobo
6. Big Boy Brown
7. Lee Savold
8. Lou Brooks
9. Tony Musto
10. Joey Maxim

So the number 1, number 3, number 4, number 5, number 6, and number 8 men were black, Mauriello never defeated any of them

1943 ratings

joe Louis*, Champion

1. Jimmy Bivins
2. Tami Mauriello
3. Lee Q. Murray
4. Curtis Sheppard
5. Gus Dorazio
6. Joe Baksi
7. Joey Maxim
8. Turkey Thompson
9. Lee Savold
10. Buddy Scott

Again, the number 1, number 3, number 4, number 8 contenders were black, Mauriello never defeated any of them


Let’s move to 1946

1946

Joe Louis, Champion

1. Tami Mauriello
2. Elmer Ray
3. Jersey Joe Walcott
4. Bruce Woodcock
5. Lee Q. Murray
6. Curtis Sheppard
7. Melio Bettina
8. Joe Baksi
9. Joe Kahut
10. Joey Maxim

So Mauriello moves to the number 1 spot despite not defeating the number 2 or number 3 men who were black. But he did defeat the number 4 man, a white man....a very soft Bruce Woodcock, who padded his record in Europe with a bunch of tomato cans


Poor Baksi (defeated Mauriello) whom had the guts to take on top black fighters had moved all the day down to 8 because of losses to top black men, while Mauriello defeating soft white contenders like aging nova and euro woodcock gave him the number 1 rating,


Look at all those top black men who were in the top 5 from 1942-1946.....Bivins, Thompson, Ray, Walcott, Shepherd, Bobo, Toles....how many did Mauriello defeat? Answer 0


I don’t know who Mauriellsos manager was, but he did a great job protecting his fighter from the superior black men and weaseling his way into a number 1 rating and easy pay day for Louis.


Bottom line: pre 1960. If you were a white fighter, all you had to do was beat other white men and avoid the top black men and you would be guaranteed a title shot.

 

Muariello hid behind the color line way more than I thought. Wow pathetic how many top black men he was able to avoid to keep his high ranking. What a joke!

 

So you are specifically stating Mauriello only got rated above Ray because of his skin pigmentation? Yet you also state there were loads of top ranked black guys? Surely if white fighters were getting ranked on the basis of their colour there would have been a predominance of white men in the top ten?
Just a thought ,how many of these top ranked black guys I name here did Ray fight?
Bivins
Sheppard
Thompson
Bobo
Toles
Murray
Walker
Franklin
Brown
Thomas
10 black guys who were ranked in that era.
How many of them did Ray fight?

 

Firstly, Mauriello did not literally draw the color line.

You don't get to throw that charge at any contender who has comparatively few black opponents on his resume.

Secondly, both Ray and Muariello opted for an easy route to a title shot, they just had very different interpretations of what that was.

Ray feasted on easy opposition, and gambled everything on getting past one or two very highly rated contenders, while Muariello consistently fought good opposition, but perhaps steered clear of one or two very dangerous contenders.

Both were entirely within their rights to take such a path, if they wished to do so.

 

Ray fought the two overwhelmingly best black men Charles and Walcott, as well as one of the top 5 black men Thompson. Ray beat Charles and Walcott to earn his number 1 rating, muariello “earned” his number 1 rating by defeating steamboat captain woodcock

Mauriello lost to Bivins, then never took on another rated black man again until he got destroyed by louis in an easy pay day


Mauriellos ride as a contender was very similar to lastarzas, except lastarza had one big win over Layne while Mauriello had no big wins. From now on every time you bring up lastarza to criticize him I’m going to bring up tami muariello because Mauriello compares well to lastarza as a contender who rode a number 1 rating by hiding behind the color line and refusing to fight superior black men. How you can’t see the correlation is mind boggling.


Take a look above, I provided evidence using the ratings in 1942 1943 1946 that Mauriello refused to fight top rated black men, and somehow kept his high rating despite not beating them. He also surpassed joe Baksi Bivins despite losing to both of them because Baksi and Bivins weren’t afraid to draw the color line and took on Walcott and Charles.

 

Mauriello pretty much drew the color line, as best you could as a contender. He avoided all the top rated black men. Look at the ratings I posted, the proof is in the pudding

“Ray feasted on easy opposition”

Except he didn’t because he fought Walcott Charles and Thompson all top rated black men. And the only top white man who would fight him, Savold, got destroyed.


“Muariello fought good opposition”

He fought good white opposition. But he didn’t fight and beat good black opposition so overall he didn’t defeat the divisions best. He lost to Bivins then avoided all the top rated black men of the day which were plenty as I demonstrated. He also avoided a showdown with Elmer ray in Madison square garden, So Mauriello never actually beat the divisions best, never at any point. Unless you count steamboat captain woodcock as divisions best. Muariello didn’t even beat the best white fighter of the era, joe Baksi, who wasn’t afraid to draw the color line like muariello

How muariello managed to earn a number 1 rating while never defeating a top rated heavyweight, and avoiding all those top rated black men is a question I will continue to ask. His number 1 rating was an absolute joke, and completely manufactured

 

So your colour automatically determines how good you are ? Interesting.

 

By the time Mauriello got his shot at the title he had fought:

Gunnar Barlund X2
Buddy Knox X2
Bob Pastor
Tony Musto
Red Burman
Jimm Bivins X2
Lee Savold X2
Lou Nova X2
Joe Baksi
Lee Oma X3
Bruce Woodcock

That is not what I call an easy road to a #1 ranking.

 

Nope but we all know how many world class black heavyweights got screwed over pre 1960

 

It’s not about who you fight, it’s about who you beat to earn the 1 spot. And the best fighters you listed Mauriello lost too.


Read Edwards fine Analysis above on why Mauriello did not deserve the number 1 rating

 

Maybe you should blame Louis,Charles ,Walcott,Patterson, rather than Mauriello?

 

Being kod in1 round by both Lewis and Thompson puts restrictions on how high you can place Elmer,imo

 

You and Janitor are the ones who claimed Mauriello was on the same level as Ray. So Tami is on trial here