Elmer "Violent" Ray: His age, early career, and major fights

Grebfan9 · Feb 11, 2008

Hey MarcianoFrazier,

GREAT POSTS!!!

Yeah, Ray should have received a title fight. He was an
incredibly dangerous fighter and destroyed Lee Savold,
a durable fighter.

Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

Marciano Frazier said:

My indicating that I thought it was "a bit of a fluke" wasn't meant to indicate that it was something Thompson couldn't/wouldn't have ordinarily been capable of doing, but rather that I don't think it's what would usually have happened between those two. In other words, in their first fight, Ray showed the ability to consistently dominate Thompson for five-and-a-half rounds, and through most of their careers, Ray overall comes across as the better fighter from what I can see. I tend to think that if they fought, say, 10 times, Ray would probably win about seven.

This is yet another case where one guy (Thompson) has fairly unimpressive total knockout numbers, but a lot of impressive knockouts and knockdowns over name opponents, while the other guy (Ray) has monstrous knockout numbers, but didn't really deliver against top opponents.

After a slow start to his career (only two knockouts in his first 15 fights listed on boxrec), Ray's knockout numbers are downright scary. He had a 50-0 (44 KOs) run in 44-47, and ran up 17 consecutive knockouts in less than a year going into the 1946 Walcott fight, all of them but one coming in the first five rounds. In fact, aside from Walcott and Charles, Ray literally knocked out every single man he fought from 1944 through 1948. You like knockouts over bigger men- after those first 15 fights, Ray's record against opponents listed as weighing 200 or more is 21-2 with 19 knockouts (one of those losses coming whilst he was shot in '49). He knocked out a fair few men who at least briefly made the top 10 during his run in guys like Daniels, Peaks, Riviera and Chaney.
His blow-out over Savold is very impressive, as Savold hadn't been stopped in his last 40 fights and wouldn't be stopped again for another five years and 15 fights afterwards, both of those runs including numerous matches against elite opposition. According to the NY Times account, Ray knocked Savold through the ropes with a right hand early in round two, Savold climbed back in off the ring apron, and Ray promptly hit him with a short right to the jaw that knocked him out cold flat on his face. Ray's knockout percentage is impressive at just over 65%, and he went 59-2 with 52 knockouts, or about 84%, in his prime years. That is a much higher ratio than Thompson ever put together.

All of that said, though, Ray's upper-tier resume in terms of knockouts is decidedly thin. His only real impressive knockout over a serious contender is the Savold fight, and he didn't really demonstrate his power in his fights with Walcott, Charles or Thompson. Thompson blows him out of the water in this regard. Flicking across their boxrec records, I see four common opponents, throwing out John Holman, who they both lost to while they were shot. Ray went 5-1 (4 KOs) to Thompson's 4-1 (3 KOs)- similar results, really, and not very telling against the fairly low caliber of opposition their common opponents largely represent.

Ultimately, it seems very hard to say who really hit harder between these guys, particularly without film. From the accounts I've read, Thompson seems to have been a short, stout, crude brawler with a big punch and a sturdy chin who went out there winging haymakers. On the other hand, Ray sounds like a considerably more skillful fighter, a bobber and weaver with superior height, reach and speed. Perhaps Ray was able to polish off lower-and-mid-level guys with that kind of frightening effectiveness and consistency because of his combination of speed, skill and aggressiveness, but didn't have quite the pure power of a Thompson against big-name guys. Or maybe Ray fought somewhat more reservedly against more dangerous opponents and focused more on winning rounds instead of pressing for the knockout, while Thompson was more one-dimensional. I also think it's true that Ray really didn't get many chances to prove his power against elite opposition during his peak run- the Thompson fights were a little before Ray really hit his stride, and even then, Thompson was a very durable and hard-hitting guy, and Walcott and Charles were both extremely difficult to stop in their primes (Walcott stopped only by Marciano and Louis from 1941-53, Charles stopped only by Marciano and Walcott from 44-54). Ray did destroy Savold. If guys like Oma, Pastor, Nova, Mauriello, etc. would have gotten in the ring with him, I think Ray would likely have accumulated a much more impressive high-level knockout resume than the one he actually has.

Yes, but Ray was well over the hill by 1949, as was Louis. Was Thompson ever a candidate for exhibitions with Louis? I assume you needed to sign up or somesuch in order to be considered for fighting an exhibition with an ex-champ.
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OLD FOGEY · Feb 11, 2008

Marciano-Frazier--Your post #14 above is balanced, fair, and well-argued, but goes off the rails due to one issue. Elmer Ray and Turkey Thompson did not fight equal competition. I checked boxrec on Ray's fifty bout winning streak. Ray was a rated contender every year from 1944 to 1947 while building up his winning streak, rising to #2 contender status in the yearly Ring ratings of 1946 and 1947, peaking at #1 contender for a three month period, yet 22 of his fifty opponents during his winning streak had losing records and a slew of others had unimpressive records. Here is a run of opponents from 1946 when Ray was one of the two or three highest rated heavyweights in the world.
Grant Shade 1-1-1
Cyclone Lynch 3-10-1
Grant Shade 1-2-1
Dan Merritt 16-29-3
Al Patterson 12-16-1
Hubert Hood 10-8-3
Dixie Oliver 9-9-2
Here is list of opponents leading up to and following the 3rd Walcott fight:
Earl Lowman 19-32-0
George Parks 13-19-3
Clifford Mann 2-3
Jersey Joe Walcott L 10
George Parks 13-21-3
And a list of opponents leading to and between the two fights with Charles
Howard Chard 9-13-0
Ezzard Charles W-10
Willie Brown 5-15-0
Sandy McPherson 17-14-2
Al Smith 2-4
Ezzard Charles ko by 9

Turkey Thompson is an entirely different story. After his first nine bouts, in which only two had winning records and a few no records, he fought 63 times.
56 of these opponents had winning records, five losing records, and two even. I wouldn't say Thompson never fought tomato-cans, but he rarely did. His won-lost percentage, winning streaks, and knockout percentage are less gaudy than Ray because he consistently fought contenders, or opponents Ring Magazine would in those days rate as class A (not top ten but about top fifty of so).
Ray has an impressive record in many ways, with wins over champions Walcott and Charles, and a knockout of Savold, but his record is also heavily padded with tomato-cans. Thompson consistently fought much worthier opposition, and blew out Ray in one of their two fights. Thompson did not lose the other. Ray claimed a foul and refused to continue. I think it a stretch to give Ray an edge head to head.
Thompson's record stands up to scrutiny better than Ray's statistically inflated resume.

Marciano Frazier · Feb 11, 2008

OLD FOGEY said:

Marciano-Frazier--Your post #14 above is balanced, fair, and well-argued, but goes off the rails due to one issue. Elmer Ray and Turkey Thompson did not fight equal competition. I checked boxrec on Ray's fifty bout winning streak. Ray was a rated contender every year from 1944 to 1947 while building up his winning streak, rising to #2 contender status in the yearly Ring ratings of 1946 and 1947, peaking at #1 contender for a three month period, yet 22 of his fifty opponents during his winning streak had losing records and a slew of others had unimpressive records. Here is a run of opponents from 1946 when Ray was one of the two or three highest rated heavyweights in the world.
Grant Shade 1-1-1
Cyclone Lynch 3-10-1
Grant Shade 1-2-1
Dan Merritt 16-29-3
Al Patterson 12-16-1
Hubert Hood 10-8-3
Dixie Oliver 9-9-2
Here is list of opponents leading up to and following the 3rd Walcott fight:
Earl Lowman 19-32-0
George Parks 13-19-3
Clifford Mann 2-3
Jersey Joe Walcott L 10
George Parks 13-21-3
And a list of opponents leading to and between the two fights with Charles
Howard Chard 9-13-0
Ezzard Charles W-10
Willie Brown 5-15-0
Sandy McPherson 17-14-2
Al Smith 2-4
Ezzard Charles ko by 9

Turkey Thompson is an entirely different story. After his first nine bouts, in which only two had winning records and a few no records, he fought 63 times.
56 of these opponents had winning records, five losing records, and two even. I wouldn't say Thompson never fought tomato-cans, but he rarely did. His won-lost percentage, winning streaks, and knockout percentage are less gaudy than Ray because he consistently fought contenders, or opponents Ring Magazine would in those days rate as class A (not top ten but about top fifty of so).
Ray has an impressive record in many ways, with wins over champions Walcott and Charles, and a knockout of Savold, but his record is also heavily padded with tomato-cans. Thompson consistently fought much worthier opposition, and blew out Ray in one of their two fights.
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Now, I didn't say they fought equal opposition; I think I alluded to Ray's thinner resume of elite opposition in this passage:
"Perhaps Ray was able to polish off lower-and-mid-level guys with that kind of frightening effectiveness and consistency because of his combination of speed, skill and aggressiveness, but didn't have quite the pure power of a Thompson against big-name guys. Or maybe Ray fought somewhat more reservedly against more dangerous opponents and focused more on winning rounds instead of pressing for the knockout, while Thompson was more one-dimensional. I also think it's true that Ray really didn't get many chances to prove his power against elite opposition during his peak run- the Thompson fights were a little before Ray really hit his stride, and even then, Thompson was a very durable and hard-hitting guy, and Walcott and Charles were both extremely difficult to stop in their primes (Walcott stopped only by Marciano and Louis from 1941-53, Charles stopped only by Marciano and Walcott from 44-54). Ray did destroy Savold. If guys like Oma, Pastor, Nova, Mauriello, etc. would have gotten in the ring with him, I think Ray would likely have accumulated a much more impressive high-level knockout resume than the one he actually has."

I didn't say that their records were built against equal opposition, but rather I indicated that Ray had highly-impressive general knockout numbers, but was short on elite opposition, while Thompson had less-impressive statistics, but showed more power in his fights with top opponents (of which he had many more).

Even a prime Thompson lost once and went to a split decision in the rematch against gatekeeper Perk Daniels (who Ray beat twice, once by shut-out and once by KO, shortly thereafter), went the distance twice with an obscure journeyman named Clayton Worlds (had only a handful of fights on boxrec at the time, 16-11-1 career record), and went to a split decision against a mediocre journeyman in Roy Taylor. These aren't terrible blackmarks on the record of a 1940s contender, but Ray knocked out absolutely everyone who wasn't a future world champion that he faced over a five-year-plus period in his own peak, and faced many guys who were as good as or better than those fighters, so it is clearly a department where Ray has the advantage over Thompson.

Thompson did not lose the other. Ray claimed a foul and refused to continue. I think it a stretch to give Ray an edge head to head.
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I disagree here. According to the accounts I've looked up (posted earlier in this thread), Ray was fouled- twice, both of them crushing low blows, the first coming in the second round and requiring a rest period, and then the second coming in the sixth. He was dominating the fight and pitching a shut-out over Thompson, so I don't see why Ray would want to quit; he was just plain incapacitated by a very hard hitter hitting him very hard below the belt. If anything, this looks like it may have been a tactic by Thompson to bail himself out of trouble, though he doesn't have a history of low-blowing when in trouble insofar as I can tell, so he can be given the benefit of the doubt- either way, since it happened twice and was that severe, I get the strong impression a DQ would probably be warranted, and certainly Ray was the better man in the ring in that match.

Thompson's record stands up to scrutiny better than Ray's statistically inflated resume.
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Thompson had a lot more pock-marks in his prime even against guys who were not any more worthy than a lot of Ray's opponents, as noted above. Having dug through accounts following nearly all of his run from 1944-1948, it seems that Ray barely even lost a round that wasn't to Walcott or Charles; in the handful of fights where he went the distance, he seems to have been in complete control while his opponents struggled to survive. The Daniels decision is called a shut-out, the Lane decision is described as "very lopsided," etc., and he knocked all of those guys out in subsequent rematches.
And in his fights against upper-tier journeymen, the accounts routinely describe how the other guy was never in the fight as Ray chased him down or bounced him off the floor like a basketball- note that several of these guys were able to give other contenders serious trouble or beat them, such as Peaks, who beat Lee Q. Murray and Jimmy Bivins (I believe Peaks was in the top 10 when Ray beat him), Daniels, who beat Thompson and Sheppard, McAlpine, who had a reputation for durability and gameness and had just taken Comiskey to a split decision, Chaney, who beat Lee Oma and highly-touted Henry "Snow" Flakes, etc. Ray went out there and crushed these guys every time, wiped out Savold (who all the other contenders were going the distance with and having a heck of a time beating) like another club fighter, defeated both Walcott and Charles,and aside from the Thompson rematch lost only to Walcott and Charles, then only in highly-competitive fights. I think this is a much higher consistent standard of performance than the one Thompson put out, as a prime Thompson did have several struggles and losses against upper-tier journeymen (Daniels, Musto, a freak one-round knockout to Al Hart, etc.) and lost pretty convincingly to the best opponents he fought other than Ray (who he was being smeared by before low-blowing his way into a NC in the first fight) in Bivins, Murray and Pastor.

In my opinion, then, Ray put forth easily the best wins between the two in his decisions over Walcott and Charles, suffered easily the less-damaging losses in only losing to legitimate top-flight opponents while anywhere near his prime, set the higher consistent overall standard of performance, ranked in the top two for two-and-a-half years solid and was #1 briefly, a height in the division which Thompson never reached, and really ought to be 1-1 against Thompson head-to-head. I consider Ray to belong well within the top 50 greatest heavyweights, arguably even top 30, while Thompson probably doesn't make the cut.

Mendoza · Feb 12, 2008

OLD FOGEY says: Ray has an impressive record in many ways, with wins over champions Walcott and Charles, and a knockout of Savold, but his record is also heavily padded with tomato-cans. Thompson consistently fought much worthier opposition, and blew out Ray in one of their two fights. Thompson did not lose the other. Ray claimed a foul and refused to continue. I think it a stretch to give Ray an edge head to head.
Thompson's record stands up to scrutiny better than Ray's statistically inflated resume.
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Marciano_Frazier says: In my opinion, then, Ray put forth easily the best wins between the two in his decisions over Walcott and Charles, suffered easily the less-damaging losses in only losing to legitimate top-flight opponents while anywhere near his prime, set the higher consistent overall standard of performance, ranked in the top two for two-and-a-half years solid and was #1 briefly, a height in the division which Thompson never reached, and really ought to be 1-1 against Thompson head-to-head. I consider Ray to belong well within the top 50 greatest heavyweights, arguably even top 30, while Thompson probably doesn't make the cut.

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Both of you have solid points. I have some news reads on Thompson. I was a bit disappointed as I learned he was down a bit more than I initially thought, and tended to gas. Thompson was something of a front runner.

Ray had better skills, a better punch, and in my opinion was the better fighter. While Thompson got the better of Ray in the series, I view Ray as the better over all fighter.

The last time I archived a top 100 heavyweights, I had Ray at #81. However, this was before I learned that Ray win over Charles was viewed as legitimate. With this win, I think Ray inches up a bit. My issues with Ray is his power didnt seem to translate into many knockouts vs Ranked guys, except for Savold.

I do not think Thompson is a top 100 guy

OLD FOGEY · Feb 12, 2008

Marciano-Frazier--you certainly posted an excellent defense of Ray. I didn't say you didn't acknowledge the gap between the competition of Ray and Thompson. I just think it undercuts your case more than you acknowledge.
1. Clayton Worlds--"obscure jouneyman" perhaps. His record was 16-11-3 in 30 fights with one knockout defeat, to top contender and big puncher Lee Q Murray. He posted wins over rated at one point or another fighters Pat Comiskey, Al Hart, Lou Brooks, Buddy Walker, and Big Boy Brown, as well as gatekeeper types Bill Peterson and Colion Chaney. He was not that bad a fighter and his durability against top men explains why Thompson did not stop him. Thompson did beat him twice by unanimous decision. If Worlds had fought Ray, he would probably have been among Ray's top fifteen opponents, and might even make the top ten. Roy Taylor is also mentioned as a mediocre journeyman but he had a 28-9 record and was coming off a win over Lloyd Marshall. Your description may be accurate, but he is still leagues better than many of Ray's opponents. Ray went the distance with Bob Smith (9-16-1) and Earl Lowman (16-17-0) when at his peak.
2. In his career, Ray fought 52 bouts against men with men with losing records, or with as many losses as victories, or with ten or fewer victories, and most of these bouts were in his prime years. Thompson only fought 19 such bouts.

mcvey · Feb 12, 2008

Marciano Frazier said:

Elmer Ray is an intriguing fighter, and one on whom information is scarce. He had an outstanding record, but has received very little media coverage, and there is no surviving film of any of his fights. In addition, much of his career, particularly early on, is oddly mysterious and difficult to sort through. This has all made me exceedingly curious, and in recent months, I've spent a fair deal of time sifting for information on him, largely from old magazine and newspaper accounts. I wanted to share some of my more interesting findings here, and discuss the confusing points which still remain.

Here's some background on Ray:
In the years before he became a famous professional boxer, he rose to prominence in the southern battle royale circuit- battle royales being a fight game from that time period in which 10 competitors would be put into the ring with each other and have an "all-against-all" throw-down until only one was left. Ray won 61 battle royales and supposedly once knocked out nine opponents with one hand behind his back during a match in New Orleans, earning himself the title "King of the Battle Royale." According to the Traverse City Eagle, March 11, 1946,

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He also had a reputation as an alligator wrestler. When he held camp near his home town in Florida, he would scare his manager to death by going out into the mud and wrestling 'gators, often to entertain tourists. In fact, he was so comfortable around them that he was known to casually play with them and let them eat out of his hand.

All-in-all, I think the nickname "Violent" fits him just fine. Interesting side note- after WWII, Ray's rather outspoken and creative manager, Tommy O'Loughlin, apparently tried to rechristen him "Elmer 'Atomic' Ray," but it didn't stick.

Now, on to the confusing parts:

First, His Age and Early Record

Ray is listed on boxrec as having been born in March 10th, 1910, but elsewhere on the internet is listed as having been born in October, and, in one newspaper account I've seen, is said to have been born in May. But even odder is the age discrepancy; some accounts have him born in 1910 and hence being in his late 30s at the time of all of his major fights, but others have him at seven years younger. Accounts of the Charles fights disagree on whether he was 31 or 38 at the time of the fights! I've seen one other article which clarifies that Ray himself was not sure how old he was, but even then, a seven year discrepancy in age is hard to account for.

Now, boxrec used to list Ray as having had a series of fights in the late '20s, before taking an inexplicable six-year layoff and then coming back in 1936. However, I have seen it said that the '20s fights were considered "suspect," and they have now been removed from his boxrec record. Still further, I've seen at least one article which specifically describes Ray as having taken up boxing in 1936. If the '20s fights did happen, then the age issue is more or less resolved, since he would've had to have been having professional heavyweight fights when he was 10 years old in order for the younger age to be true, but if they are spurious (which now seems likely), then the younger age actually fits much better with the timeline of his career in a lot of ways, since that would make Ray 19 when he turned pro in 1936 (a typical age for turning professional) and would have him peaking in his mid-late twenties (also typical) before starting to decline in his early thirties, instead of turning pro at 16, having a few fights and then being inactive for six years, coming back in his late twenties and then finally rising to the top of the division in his late thirties, which would be extremely unusual in that era, particularly for a swarming-style fighter like Ray. In addition, I've been able to find no evidence anywhere of Ray dying, and if he's lived to the present day, a younger birth date seems more likely.

The answer to this question could change the way one would look at Ray's record in the late '30s through early '40s. If he was a 19-to-20-year old who probably wasn't completely physically mature and had no prior one-on-one boxing experience, then his results in those years are cast in a considerably different light than if he was an older guy who had had some pro boxing matches a few years back and gone on a layoff.

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Interesting info ,I wonder if Suzie Q could add anything to this?

OLD FOGEY · Feb 12, 2008

Mendoza said:

Both of you have solid points. I have some news reads on Thompson. I was a bit disappointed as I learned he was down a bit more than I initially thought, and tended to gas. Thompson was something of a front runner.

Ray had better skills, a better punch, and in my opinion was the better fighter. While Thompson got the better of Ray in the series, I view Ray as the better over all fighter.

The last time I archived a top 100 heavyweights, I had Ray at #81. However, this was before I learned that Ray win over Charles was viewed as legitimate. With this win, I think Ray inches up a bit. My issues with Ray is his power didn’t seem to translate into many knockouts vs Ranked guys, except for Savold.

I do not think Thompson is a top 100 guy
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"Ray had better skills, A BETTER PUNCH, and in my opinion was the better fighter. While Thompson got the better of Ray in the series, I view Ray as the better over all fighter."

Given that he did score wins over Walcott and Charles, I do not take issue with rating Ray over Thompson. Beating champions is certainly a legitimate criteria. I agree with Marciano-Frazier and you that Ray was the better boxer and more skilled. I don't know about Thompson being down all that often. He was stopped twice, and one was by Bean when he was coming back at the end of his career after a two year layoff.
Here are the records of Ray and Thompson against men rated one year or another in the Ring Magazine yearly ratings:
Elmer Ray:
Leroy Haynes-----won 10
Otis Thomas-----won 10
Turkey Thompson-----nc 6, ko by 1
Lee Savold-----ko 2
Jersey Joe Walcott-----ko by 3, won 10, lost 10
Ezzard Charles-----won 10, ko by 9
John Holman-----ko by 4

Elmer Ray fought 7 fighters ranked in the yearly rankings. He had a total of 13 fights. He won 6 and lost 6 with 1 No contest. He scored one knockout. He was stopped four times.
Winning percentage-----50%
Knockout percentage-----8%
ko'd by percentage-----31%
Comment--Ray stopped one of seven rated opponents, but was stopped by four rated opponents. I think there are serious questions raised both about his punching power and his chin.

Turkey Thompson:
Gus Dorazio-----ko 2, won 10
Bob Pastor-----lost 10, lost 10
Abe Simon-----draw 10
Arturo Godoy-----won 10
Jimmy Bivins------lost 10
Tony Musto-----draw 10
Lee Q Murray-----lost 10, ko 6
Elmer Ray-----no contest 6, ko 1
Al Hart------ko by 1, ko 2
Pat Valentino-----ko 9, Lost 10, lost 15
John Holman-----lost 10
Rex Layne-----lost 10
Clarence Henry-----lost 10

Turkey Thompson fought 13 fighters ranked in the yearly rankings. He had a total of 20 fights. He won 7 and lost 10 with 2 draws and 1 no contest. He scored five knockouts. He was stopped once.
Winning percentage-----35%
Knockout percentage-----25%
ko'd by percentage-----5%
One can make the case Thompson did not do quite as well due to the lower winning percentage. His chin looks better, and his punch more dangerous, especially considering Pastor had to survive six knockdowns in the first round of their first fight.

I think you have a very good point about Thompson having some stamina problems. Pastor and also Teddy Yarosz survived tremendous early beatings to come back and outpoint him. Ray has issues with his chin against top men.

Mendoza · Feb 12, 2008

Yes, Ray wasn't super durable for sure. I read the Thompson vs Abe Simon report. Simon had Thompson down a few times, and winded.

I also have info on Layne vs Thompson. Layne out pointed Thompson.

The thing to focus on is Ray pretty much beat prime verisons of Charles and Walcott when he was in his mid to late 30's. This is pretty impressive.

OLD FOGEY · Feb 12, 2008

Mendoza said:

Yes, Ray wasn't super durable for sure. I read the Thompson vs Abe Simon report. Simon had Thompson down a few times, and winded.

I also have info on Layne vs Thompson. Layne out pointed Thompson.

The thing to focus on is Ray pretty much beat prime verisons of Charles and Walcott when he was in his mid to late 30's. This is pretty impressive.
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What you say is true concerning Charles and Walcott. He did not knock either man out, though, and I was questioning his punching power.

Also, Marciano-Frazier's initial post indicates Ray may have been as many as seven years younger than is often recorded.

Marciano Frazier · Feb 12, 2008

OLD FOGEY said:

Marciano-Frazier--you certainly posted an excellent defense of Ray. I didn't say you didn't acknowledge the gap between the competition of Ray and Thompson. I just think it undercuts your case more than you acknowledge.
1. Clayton Worlds--"obscure jouneyman" perhaps. His record was 16-11-3 in 30 fights with one knockout defeat, to top contender and big puncher Lee Q Murray. He posted wins over rated at one point or another fighters Pat Comiskey, Al Hart, Lou Brooks, Buddy Walker, and Big Boy Brown, as well as gatekeeper types Bill Peterson and Colion Chaney. He was not that bad a fighter and his durability against top men explains why Thompson did not stop him. Thompson did beat him twice by unanimous decision. If Worlds had fought Ray, he would probably have been among Ray's top fifteen opponents, and might even make the top ten. Roy Taylor is also mentioned as a mediocre journeyman but he had a 28-9 record and was coming off a win over Lloyd Marshall. Your description may be accurate, but he is still leagues better than many of Ray's opponents.
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Yes, those guys weren't wash-out opposition, but my point was that they were no better than a fair few of the guys Ray mopped up with in his prime, and Thompson had far more struggle against lower-to-moderate-level opposition even during his prime than Ray did, as is also illustrated by the Daniels and Hart examples. As I say, Ray was consistently dominant with no slip-ups even against a number of guys who other contenders- including Thompson- struggled or lost against.

Ray went the distance with Bob Smith (9-16-1) and Earl Lowman (16-17-0) when at his peak.
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Yes, but he stopped both Lowman and Smith repeatedly- and early- in other outings. Fighting that often and almost exclusively against black fighters, Ray did repeatedly end up taking on the same journeymen several times. And as I say, he stopped literally every man he fought aside from Walcott and Charles for a five-year, 60+ fight run.

2. In his career, Ray fought 52 bouts against men with men with losing records, or with as many losses as victories, or with ten or fewer victories, and most of these bouts were in his prime years. Thompson only fought 19 such bouts.
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Well, of course boxrec is far from an ultimately complete source on lower-level journeymen from the 1940s- I would bet that a lot of those guys listed as having won fewer than 10 fights actually won a fair few more. The point does stand that Thompson fought a better consistent level of opposition, but I think my previous points stand as well- that against pretty much any level of competition, Ray did better in his prime than Thompson did, that Ray has the better wins and that Ray has less-damaging losses.

SuzieQ49 · Mar 15, 2008

mcvey said:

Interesting info ,I wonder if Suzie Q could add anything to this?
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Other than a "incredible well thought analysis by marcianofrasier that deserves a sticky" I will add about the "thin" resume of Elmer Ray compared to thompson, That Ray Also defeated Negro Heavyweight Champion Big 245lb Obie Walker 3 times, Obie was a big dangerous contender with a good 51-10 record. Obie had recently beat hall of famer George Godfrey for the crown. Another decent fighter Ray beat was Otis Thomas, a mysterious black heavyweight of the 40s, who a couple of my newspaper articls regarded Thomas as A level talent. Thomas weighed around the 205lb area, another pretty big dude. Perk daniels was rated in top 10 Ring Magazine when Ray beat him. Sid Peaks was a big dude 6'4 225lb Ray wiped the floor with him when he was around 40 years old, Peaks was regarded pretty highly too supposedly a big time puncher. I will post a couple quotes from papers on Peaks.

Overall when you look at rays wins Charles, Walcott, Thompson(Ridiculous not to call this a DQ win for Ray), Daniels 2x, Sid Peaks, Obie Walker 3x, O Thomas........its a pretty solid resume considering how often ray got avoided by ranked contenders.

I rank Elmer Ray in my top 25 heavyweights of all time. Herb Goldman rates him # 17.

SuzieQ49 · Mar 15, 2008

Old Fogey I question your numbers because I am nearly 90% sure perk daniels and Sid Peaks were in the Ring Magazine rankings at one time or another.

OLD FOGEY · Mar 15, 2008

SuzieQ49 said:

Old Fogey I question your numbers because I am nearly 90% sure perk daniels and Sid Peaks were in the Ring Magazine rankings at one time or another.
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I went by the yearly Ring ratings. I just don't access at this point to monthly ratings. Peaks was definitely rated at one time. I know that, but I stuck to monthly ratings to be consistent. After all, Eddie Blunt might have been rated also in one month or another. So might Clayton Worlds.

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Elmer "Violent" Ray: His age, early career, and major fights

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OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

Marciano Frazier Well-Known Member Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member