Emanuel Steward talks about Heavyweight History

I guess every one at times in their life. They didn´t let those interfere with their career though.

 

Why does Foreman get a pass for being basically "in a rough spot of his life because he lost" while Tyson gets torn apart by detractors when he actually has excuses for a decline. Namely a nasty divorce and more media attention than possibly any other champion when he was barely out of his teenage years combined with the fact he was sent to prison for over 3 years.

But he's the one that gets called a ***** and slammed for losing to Holyfield while Foreman gets a pass for nearly getting bombed out against Ron Lyle and getting outclassed by Jimmy Young because he was sad

Bit of a double standard imo.

 

Post Ali definitely. I guess you don't study Foreman much.



I don't think he's a girl. I think you make him sound like one, with his confidence issues and his identity issues. You're probably going to tell me Llyle decked him because he had a body image problem next.[/quote]

I make him sound like one by quoting him and referencing toward his recounted mindset? Okay... doesn't make me look stupid saying though.

 

ATG company is vague. Top 10, Top 20? You're just wasting breath. Foreman is the near the top echelon in terms of ring IQ. Key word is near.

So this whole discussion I've observed has been an allusion in my mind? Has their not been a disagreement about George's ring smarts. Is this miscommunication? Aren't you arguing that Foreman wasn't that smart.

This is what you argued in your post again Bojak for saying Foreman was smart but people have trouble understanding this because of the Zaire fight.

Now you're saying that Foreman is very smart just not in terms of ATG company. You're being vague, and non-descript. I've noticed you have a habit of shifting your position and argument in the middle of a discussion. Almost as if you shape yourself in a way to be closer to the opposing side but still against their main point.

Name these "14 ATG" that make Foreman not in this ATG smart company.

 

Because people talk about these nasty outside distractions while mentioning Spinks as his best performance. All which was going on around that fight.

People call him a ***** for losing to Holyfield? Maybe it was biting his ear. Tyson went to prison shortly after losing so a lot of what could have happened is unknown.

Yes, the double standard is how godly Tyson is from post 88 to how bad he got. While Foreman was all the same when the reality is he slipped probably more mentally and strategically.

 

How about Tyson vs Holyfield II?

I think that qualifies as a mental issue.

I'll also say Tyson vs Lewis. Don't think he was mentally prepared nor had any confidence. In fact, he was there for the money and after the 1st round completely packed it in and only tried to survive. Some Tyson's fans reference the fight as his toughness. Sure, he took some big shots but he never showed the will to overcome.

Lastly, to the main point. If people think that the Foreman vs Frazier is the same as the one vs Lyle they are crazy. Foreman stopped jabbing after destroying Frazier. He stopped setting his punches up. It took 1-2 fights for him to just haymaker blaze people.

And people criticizing Foreman's lack of pacing as a lack of smarts. Foreman never paced.

He was dead tired at the end of the Peralta fights (Especially since his corner duped him into going all out in round 9). Against Ali he faced the heat and a huge force. If Foreman missed more instead of banging on Ali I think people would have more of a point. If he slowed his pace down he would've lost the rounds. The "pacing" post 74 Foreman just didn't cut it. Because he was using fundamentals and skills enough. From the ones he had, and the ones he never did.

 

It is always difficult to speculate about people's mental state and how that affected them as fighters, and I definitely think Muchmoore has a point.

But, if nothing else, Foreman breaking down in the shower after the loss to Young, having a panic attack and then a vision of Jesus, is a hint that everything wasn't quite right. 'Course there are parallells with Tyson here as well.

All in all, watching Foreman I have a hard time seeing him as a smart fighter of the highest order, but I think that Steward may be on to something about him at least being more sophisticated than he looks. I also think his stupidity in Zaire gets a bit overstated. Sure, he didn't fight a smart fight, but the crucial element is that he was suckered in by an outrageous gameplan that perhaps no one else would think up and execute. He didn't see it coming, but then no one else did either.

 

I should be done after this because I didn't say that and it's clear that isn't the case. He wasn't the same mentally and he had confidence issues. Foreman said this repeatedly. What don't you understand?

The double standard deals with Tyson getting more treatment and justification and not Foreman.

Foreman still had heart, though. He vowed to get up every-time he got knocked down. But man the guy was very very different from 73 to 76-77. These isn't perception but reality.

Smith?

Yes, and no. Foreman had a false image of his self. He thought he was a destroyer. He thought that no one could take his power. Boxing, pacing, setting punches up went out the window. If a hit you and beat you down you will crumble.

After Frazier fight he changed dramatically. More so than Tyson fans talk about Tyson's skills deteriorating post Rooney. When you mention that Tyson still moved his head, and jabbed (While probably never enough) they say he didn't do that as well though. Well Foreman just dropped things. He was jabbing Frazier's head off in that fight. But after destroying Norton and Frazier he just stopped jabbing. His jab is way too absent in his fight with Ali. If he used that jab more and the straight right he would have had major success before Ali went to the ropes and while he was at the ropes.

When he lost he was devastated. Some claim that Tyson was mentally shot when he lost. That may be the case to an extent. I think Tyson looked good on the Ruddock parts for the most part. But Tyson went to prison... so we don't get to see much from him till he comes back. And after beating up some perfect match-made fighters he's back to his "I'm a God" and "I'm invincible" mentality.

Foreman never restored himself to that confidence.

As for the Ali fight yes. Ali psyched him out. Ali talked the talk before the fight. Foreman had zero worries. But during it when he unloaded and Ali took it. It zapped his aura. THEN and there. Foreman said "What's going on... why is this go not falling. I'm unloading my biggest shots and he's still here." Foreman physically was tiring and probably mentally losing confidence. He never gave up though. He even says in his mind when Ali had him down that he could get up and he said "NOW I HAVE HIM." Like he'll come to me. He remembers Jim Brown said "No uh George. He would have went right back to those ropes." No doubt Ali out-smarted and out-toughed George. I think Ali could have stuck and move but he was worried about his own stamina.

Foreman that comeback was much more relaxed. A tank of a man. He could take punches better because he was more relaxed and he could jab and set punches up... he also could unload at times when he knew it was right. He never wasted himself after that Zaire fight. Foreman fought his fight in Zaire. If he used more fundamentals and used straighter punches he would've faired better. Ali probably had his number then.

I see the conversation has transcended from Ring IQ to mental strength. A lot of it is confidence. But I disagree. Not many could out-tough and out-psyche George. Ali was special. Foreman always got up after being dropped since Zaire (He got up at 9 in Zaire btw) and Tyson was usually dropped and down. And Tyson broke down by actually biting another man.

Foreman held it together better. In his prime in H2H matches he would fare well. Not many could do what Ali did.

 

Give me 14 names.

It actually is pretty impressive. As Jim Lampley said, "I think Foreman has advanced ring IQ."

If you look at his whole portfolio and the examples of some of his fights I think it is indeed pretty solid.

And yet you've agreed with me since then and I don't agree with post #9.

The only thing tiring is your argument tactics. I've asked you to name these fighters repeatedly. You've said "ATG company" and once mentioned "14 fighters." So I don't see how every-time you say ATG company you are saying 14 fighters.