Emanuel Steward talks about Heavyweight History

The fact that Tyson bit Holyfield's ear pretty much sums up where he was mentally

 

What's your point? Who denies Tyson was mentally weak?

I think he gets slammed and called a ***** for biting Holyfield's ear. Not losing to him.

 

Because he was literally sedated for his fight with Lennox

I'm not trying to defend Tyson, just pointing out the double standard which gives Foreman a pass for falling apart mentally while crushing Tyson for the same reason. There's no doubt Foreman was worse off after Ali.

 

Unable to function properly makes it sound like he has some serious illness or something. It just sounds hyperbolic; Foreman not being the same is fine.

His mental strength is good for a man who stated he was devastated and lost his essence after losing to Ali. His confidence and form was still never the same. Compared to Tyson his mental strength is better.

But when you talk about fighting Lyle and getting dropped and how good fighters don't do that. You do realize that Foreman changed drastically after fighting the Norton/Frazier fights? He does "fight stupidly" but this is the mentally weaker Foreman trying to re-prove his invincibility. Don't you understand that? Fighting with fundamentals and skills isn't the way he's going to do that.

I'm sorry a lapse. I don't take that fight too much into Tyson being frustated. He wants to fight and Smith doesn't want to and wants to survive. Yeah, he gets frustrated and that shows his temperament. But a ferocious killer like him should be frustrated if he's being refrained from fighting. He needs to maintain his heart and strength while doing that. I think others look at his latter fights when examining his mentality. I think I'm more of a proponent that Tyson skills didn't fade as drastically as his fans claim. I don't find him mentally weak where if you push him over he quits. But he wasn't the toughest. Atlas said when a sparring partner didn't quit he wanted to quit.

If I'm taking a prime Foreman I'm taking 1973 Foreman. The one that didn't fall in love with his power. This one jabbed Frazier's head off. He averted after being convinced he was an invincible destroyer. If he's an invincible destroyer than why does he need fundamentals?

But depending on the matchup, the longer a fight goes is a disadvantage to Foreman. Stamina was a slight weakness for sure.

Of course, I'm taking the 70's Foreman. After 10 years of reinventing himself he was a new man.

Well yes, naturally. And even more so for this version of Foreman. Or any Foreman battering a man on the ropes that endures it. But I don't think anyone can pull this strategy of except Ali.

 

I actually didn't know this. I thought he was medicated post Lewis around 2003. Did he get sedated after the press conference episodes? Do you think he fights with more spirit if he isn't sedated?

The double standard is against Foreman. I'm not big on Tyson falling off mentally, as I am that he didn't fall off as much skill-wise as some claim.

If Tyson got up more and overcame or at least showed more courage against adversity than you wouldn't see those criticisms. Foreman showed more, even though he was mentally never the same. See the difference?

 

Foreman potentially could very easily rated top 5 in terms of ring IQ among HWs. Mainly because of his comeback and what he was able to do with the strategy he employed.

 

I'm sure Tyson did but he went to prison shortly after. Liston might have but the controversy and fixed fight reactions makes it harder to judge. You're more inclined to say then me, but Liston never fell in love with his power as much. Liston go fight backwards and forwards. I'm sure many do but less have been as open about it, especially in the old days. Why would a fighter admit that sort of thing. Possibly Dempsey after Tunney?

I think Tyson probably did twice. In his documentary he couldn't believe Holyfield beat him. He then put the emphasis on head-buts. He thought he was invincible after beating Bruno.

 

You remember that Foreman jab comment. Well yes, I retract. He's got a top 5 jab perhaps. Not a top 3 one (This comes with the inclusion of Wlad).

I'm saying among HW champions that he could very well be in the top 5. He's no Gene Tunney. You say he failed Zaire I say Ali just passed. He could shot straighter shots, more jabs. I don't think lower the pace does anything... Ali comes out of his shell to jab his face of if he does.

If it was a lack of ring IQ that led him to lose... what could he have done to win? I see a bit of a contradiction within my main point I guess. Foreman is a destroyer type guy. This mentality almost conflicts from "smart-boxing." I still think his comeback is enough to show me he had a very high ring IQ. And Jim Lampley too! Fighters I consider to probably have highers ring IQs (HWS)

Jack Johnson
Muhammad Ali
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Max Schemling
Ezzard Charles


And perhaps the "maybe/don't know" categories.

Wlad
Vitali
Marciano
Walcott
Dempsey
Tyson
Holmes
Norton

 

Yeah, it's a little bit of a unique circumstance. And if I make mentions, sometimes the problem is this are as much done physically from a fight than just mentally. I guess that's the absolute distinction here.

Sure, I'd be interested to see that Liston fight.