England's best ever boxer?

If the criteria is strictly England born and not wider Britain, I've gotta go with Lewis overall.

I'll give a very decent mention to both Benn & Eubank Snrs too.

And if you taking patriotic's in to account for any reason, Benn gets another accolade for serving in the armed forces.

 

And I say Lewis is British as does his passport and British law. You have the right to your opinion, it's wrong as proven by Lewis' citizenship.

Jamaica was under British rule until the 60's just a few years before Lewis was born so both his parents were in fact born and raised under British rule so by your own argument that being under British rule is equivalent to being British his parents have a right to claim citizenship which obviously they did when they migrated to the UK to become British citizens. Both parents citizens of the British empire, Lewis himself born in the capital of England and raised here until 12, moved to Ontario another former British colony.

Your analogy about Spain and Cuba is a stretch. Nationality can legally be changed and you can have multiple nationalities, that is a fact. Your confusing ethnicity with nationality they are two different things.

Lewis moving to Canada doesn't alter his British citizenship, he's still a British citizen, he just gained Canadian citizenship along with it and if you say it does, then your own argument with Fitzsimmons is redundant as he left England when 11 and never returned. Was Fitzsimmons American then, he was based on your own argument. Yet you say he's British.

The fact you say "true" Briton as others have stated adds a sinister tone to your argument. I guess the Windrush generation to you are not British. Your point of view is backed up with inconsistent arguments, your having too nit pick various points while ignoring others to suit your point of view.

Fact is Lewis is ethnically Jamaican, but holds British, Canadian citizenship and maybe Jamaican and American too now that he seems to live in the US. You seem to be wilfully confusing the two to suit your opinion.

 

I already said if you think Lewis is a true Briton have at it, I personally don't give a ****, I'm an American and we certainly don't claim him. I simply stated my opinion because England and the UK as a whole has produced great world champions in the 200 years of organized boxing, to claim Lewis as the best of the lot is simply doing a disservice to their rich history. I know for a fact none of the Englishmen or Brits claimed Lewis when he represented Canada in the 1984 Olympics or when he won them Gold in the 1988 Olympics. Frank Bruno(a true Briton) even questioned Lewis's British nationality when they fought for the WBC title in 1993. The British fans were just gullible to have a Heavyweight champion because there wasn't anyone before Lewis since the very same Bob Fitzsimons 100 years ago.

Again, you're confused, the whole analogy with Jamaica is ****ing stupid, I'm not even sure why you wrote that. Timaru New Zealand today where Fitzsimons grew up has a 90% European population, was most likely around 100% almost 150 years ago when Fitzsimons grew up there. It was a British colony filled with Brits both culturally and ethnically. Now again, if a Spaniard in the early 1800's moved from Spain to Havana Cuba to live with other Spaniards in a Spanish colony, what is he, a Cuban or a Spaniard?

Yeah you're right, Lewis moving to Canada never altered his British citizenship just like Antonio Margarito moving to Mexico never altered his United States citizenship. Do I or any other American citizen consider Antonio Margarito a true American because he was born in the U.S and holds a U.S passport? Hell no...

 

You're American so that explains you're infatuation with race. You keep going on about New Zealand being a British Colony but so was Jamaica. The difference being one was a predominantly white colony the other a predominantly black colony. You're again confusing ethnicity with nationality. You can be black or white and still be British. As someone who isn't white who''s parents immigrated from a British colony you're basically telling me if I go live abroad, I'm not British and I can tell you for a fact I am British to my core, despite not being white.

As for your Spanish/Cuba analogy if that Spanish person in Cuba becomes a Cuban citizen his nationality is Cuban, but he's still ethnically Spanish. Again for the umpteenth time nationality and ethnicity are different.

Yes they questioned his nationality because he was a threat to the public favourite in Bruno that's simply them trying to make him the villain vs Bruno to sell the fight and because tabloids love to stir **** to sell papers. No different to the media claiming Andy Murray wasn't British just because he was a proud Scot.

In regards to Margarito, he's seen as Mexican/American as do other American born fighters from Mexican descent like Andy Ruiz. American views on race and nationality are quite different to the UK, you seem to put far more emphasis on it than we do, hence why you have people calling themselves Irish/American despite not having anyone born in Ireland in their direct family in generations. British views are quite different, Mo Farah was born in Somalia for example but is seen as a Brit here. Tennis player Johanna Konta comes from Hungarian heritage, born in Australia but was raised until she moved to England at 14 years of age. But nobody says she's Hungarian/British or Australian/British, she's just British and even when she played in the Australian Open made it clear she viewed herself as British not Australian.

That's I guess we differ. From your US perspective he's everything but British apparently, Canadian or Jamaican regardless of where he was born, what passport he holds or how he presents himself where he always terms himself as British first then Jamaican and Canadian. But fact is from a British perspective he is British.

 

I blame OP for this no true scotmann falacy debate which could have been prevented by making clear rules when someone is considered English or not.

 

I think it's you who are infatuated by race. Again, I'm an American, a Latino American to be infact, I'm mixed with all kinds of ****. I don't give 2 shits about race, you're the one who keeps bringing it up. You're extremely sensitive and think I don't think Lewis is a true Briton because he's black while Fitzsimons is because he's white which is farther from the truth, I've already said Prince Naseem, Frank Bruno, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, etc etc are true Britons despite not having a drop of British blood.

New Zealand during Fitzsimons time of day culturally and ethnically was British, it was still under British rule when Fitzsimons moved there from England. 250 thousand Cornish immigrants fled from England to New Zealand and Australia from 1861 to 1901 and Fitzsimons family was among those people. Jamaica on the other hand was a slave colony originally inhabited by my ancestors the Taino Indian. Once Christopher Columbus landed in the Caribbean islands in the late 1400's it became Spanish territory for almost 200 years and the Spaniards imported slaves from Africa while killing off the indigenous people. It then became British territory in 1655 when Britain conquered it and was mainly used to import sugars and other spices through the British Empire. Jamaica culturally and ethnically had almost nothing in common with Britain under British rule while Timaru New Zealand was almost 100% British culturally and ethnically during Fitzsimons time of day. If you can't tell the difference then idk what to tell you.

No, Margarito is seen as 100% Mexican despite being born in the United States because that's where he grew up and that's what he is culturally. Andy Ruiz, Oscar De La Hoya, Johnny Tapia, David Benavidez, Ryan Garcia etc etc are simply considered American, Mexicans from Mexico don't consider them true Mexicans, Mexicans and Mexican Americans are just culturally different.

Again, if you consider Lewis a true Briton, that's cool, idc, I'm not British, this is simply my personal opinion. But the man grew up playing "Canadian" Football better known as handegg in the UK during high-school and also called football Soccer, if I was a Brit that would automatically have been a red flag. This is an interview with Lewis in the late 80's/early 90's and his British accent is almost non existent. It's like he's trying to force himself to be British again, the British announcer even asking him how British he is while Lewis is sporting a heavy North American English accent.

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Well in the end as an American your opinion of what counts as British is meaningless. I wouldn't have the arrogance to tell you what defines being American but here you are telling us Brits what British means via your very American/Latino perspective.

In the end it's your opinion and that's fine, doesn't make it true though and most Brits would disagree with you as would Lewis, his passport and British law. Another example of this current idiotic, snowflake idea that opinion, feelings overrule facts.

 

Calzaghe

 

Please, we're in a boxing forum talking about who's the best English boxer of all time. It's an opinion based question, I'm a boxing fan, I posted my opinion and you're here upset while questioning your British nationality.

You think it's arrogant that I don't consider Lennox Lewis British, jesus how sensitive are you? I know for a fact most Brit's aren't sensitive like how you're coming across, it's borderline pathetic. I'm sorry that I don't think this guy comes across as British, it's like he's forcing himself to be something he's not.

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But yes, I stand by my opinion, I don't care whether you like or not, man up and stop being a little *****.

 

I'm not upset at anything lol, I'm just expressing a different opinion. But you seem to be based on the name calling.

Fact is we have 2 differing opinions, but my opinion is based on facts like his passport, the law, him actually still being a British citizen. While all you have is your opinion backed up by nothing but other opinions you hold.

 

Fitzsimmons

 

Lol at Jamaican by blood

 

If you're not upset, cool then, everything's all good. From my perspective it looked like you were extremely upset while questioning your British nationality simply because I didn't think Lewis was a true Briton. I didn't call you any names, I said you were acting like a little ***** and to man up. My bad. I should of taken your sensitivity and true British nationality into perspective. What I should of said was sorry my dear man but you appear to be acting a bit squeamish when having a light hearted debate, perhaps you should take the day off from the internet, reflect on your thoughts then come back when feeling a bit better.

We do indeed have a difference of opinion, but the only opinions I brought up was Fitzsimons being the GOAT Englishman and Lewis not being a true Briton. Everything else I've stated is based on fact.