Ernie Terrell vs Sonny Liston (Nov 1966)

Rumor has it Liston pre Ali 2 was in the best shape of his life, before it was postponed.

 

Really? We don’t have any evidence that in 1966, anyone other than Ali was capable of beating Liston. He still looked like a monster on film vs 6’6 Zech.

on the other hand, Terrell one year later was floored and beaten up by 5’11 200lb Thad Spencer and a few months later lost to plodder Manuel Ramos.

I mean come on.. we’re talking levels here.

Even in his prime Terrell barely managed to go 1-1 with Cleveland Williams who lasted 5 rounds in two fights with Liston.

I think Liston batters Terrell into submission, even in 1966. Prime Liston knocks out Terrell early

 

To be fair, after losing to Ali, Terrell seemed to have fallen off a cliff abruptly.

Excellent point regarding Williams-Terrell. Should also be mentioned, Williams was injured going into the second bout with Terrell and it was on the verge of cancellation.

 

Didn’t say I’d favor Ernie. At that point I think it could have been 50/50 which is fair. Terrell was certainly better than anyone Liston beat after losing the title.

 

I don’t think 50-50 is fair. Liston is an ATG, Terrell is nowhere near. A 1966 Liston was still treacherous.

Yes, but I think you’re making Terrell out to be some huge challenge. Liston has defeated men like Terrell before. Who has Terrell ever beat comparable to Liston?

 

sounds like an excuse for Terrell..can you imagine a 1966 Liston losing to Manuel Ramos or Thad Spencer?

who exactly did Terrell beat or dominate in his supposed prime years that made him so formidable? He beat ancient versions of Folley and Machen in much less impressive fashion than Liston did vs prime versions, and I’ve already remarked on the Williams comparison.

I had Williams winning on my card by 1 round, and he knocked Terrell out the first time.

Unless you believe Liston aged dramatically in 1966…he bludgeons Terrell into defeat

 

Who has Terrell ever beaten comparable to Liston ? Nobody.. nobody at all. But we’re talking about a situation where one guy was in his prime and another was past it. Leotis Martin had never beaten anybody as good as Liston either.

 

You know who else beat Gerard Zech ? Ernie Terrell. And he did it 2.5 years before Liston did when Zech was still on a winning streak and not losing every other fight by the time Sonny got to him. Terrell had Zech down twice in the first round

 

No but I also can't imagine a '64 Terrell losing to Spencer and especially Ramos. They're anomalies in his record. Jones, Chuvalo, and Folley were at least as good as Spencer and far better than Ramos.

Machen was a shell of himself but Folley was still a good fighter, if not quite as good as he was in his prime. In fact he was WBA's number one contender. He'd go on to beat Chuvalo, Bonavena (admittedly green), and knocked out Zech in four. He clearly had a lot more in the tank and Terrell wiped the floor with him.

I had Williams winning by a round as well and feel he deserved to have the knock down scored for him in the third.

I haven't actually commented on who would win in '66, but Liston had definitely seen better days by '66. He was likely in his 40s or close to it, and hadn't fought in two years with the exception of Maine debacle.

 

Sonny still looked fearsome from 1966 on, but God only knows how old he was, I doubt he was up to doing any serious training and he really wasn't fighting anyone who could give him any trouble because the whole idea was to make money. The ship of him being able to show up and intimidate serious fighters into cowering before him had long since sailed and I think at that point he'd have gotten embarrassed by someone with Terrell's chops. Thinking about it, I think at that point ... not peak Liston, at that point ... I'd seriously think about taking Jerry Quarry or Oscar Bonavena, folks like that, over him and I'm on record as saying I'd loved to have seen Floyd get a third shot. Because everybody is freezing Liston in time in 1962 and 1963, and he wasn't in the solar system of being the same fighter post-Lewiston.

 

Yikes, you actually think Terrell has a chance to beat liston in 1964?

 

I literally never said that?

 

you specifically brought up “64 Terrell” in your post

 

anomaly? Or perhaps Terrell isn’t the fighter you think he is. He was 28 years old when he lost those fights, there is zero evidence he was out of his physical prime.

“if not quite as good in his prime”

Folley was 32 years old here, had recently been knocked out by Doug Jones and drawn with someone named Dean Bogany. Folley also would fight to a draw with Karl Mildenberger shortly afterwards. Folley was hardly in his prime.

“wiped the floor with him.”

glad you are enthralled, but don’t you think you are a bit hyperbole with your description above of a boring decision victory?

I would consider Liston’s 3 round extirpation of Folley to be “wiping the floor with him”

So you have Williams going 2-0 against Terrell. Again, I will remind you Williams fought Liston twice and lasted only 5 rounds.

“Liston had seen better days by 66”

yes, but the precipice of Liston’s peak was that much more exorbitant than Terrell’s, i can’t help but estimate that a declining Liston still is levels above the best version of Terrell.

also, was Terrell declined by 66? Given you stated just a year later in 67, he suffered incredulous losses ??

 

Yes to demonstrate how much Terrell had fallen after his loss to Ali.