ESPN Classic top 10 heavyweights

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015.


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  1. Boxing125

    Boxing125 Active Member Full Member

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    I have the ESPN classic top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time DVD

    The late boxing historian Burt Sugar lists his top 10 Heavyweights with George Chuvalo and Larry Holmes as fellow panelists

    Here is Sugar's top 10

    1. Joe Louis
    2. Muhammad Ali
    3. Jack Dempsey
    4. Jack Johnson
    5 Gene Tunney
    6. Rocky Marciano
    7. Ezzard Charles
    8. George Foreman
    9 Joe Frazier
    10 Larry Holmes


    I thought it was a rather odd list - particularly the order. The criteria that one uses when making top 10 lists is essential to understanding its logic and Sugar uses the formula of ' best in their era' NOT ' who beats who'

    It was quite funny with Sugar trying to justify to a seething Larry Holmes that he was at number 10 because Holmes ' didnt have a great rival' Holmes actually thought he would have beaten Holyfield in 1992 if it wasn't for a detached retina that ' blurred my vision so I could only fight effectivley against the ropes'

    Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney being placed as high as they are is strange - arguably the two best light heavyweights of all time no doubt - but not as high on this list as heavyweights in my opinion

    He seems to love Dempsey because he held the record for most number of first round KOs and because he beat Willard and Firpo - ' both man moutains'

    Holmes and Chuvalo think Ali should be number one because Ali would beat Louis - but Sugar says ' best in their era' and that Louis was his hero. I think personal bias definatley is a factor when people rate their top 10

    The presenter says : What about the modern Heavyweights - what about Holyfield. Sugar says ' I have him at number 11 - he's one of the greats' Then he asks him about Tyson and Sugar says ' I have him at 13 or 14' The presenter then asks about Lewis and Sugar strangley says ' I don't have him in my top 20'
     
    Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015
    Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015
    #1
  2. hookfromhell

    hookfromhell Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Yeah thats Burt. Lewis certainly achieved a lot he would be in just about everyone's top 20 even top 15/10 today. Tyson has gotta be 10 the lowest, I believe his achievements are somewhat underrated in this day and age. Burt's record is a historically inclined damn good list even if you don't agree with it. I personally would trade some names.
     
    hookfromhell, Jul 30, 2015
    hookfromhell, Jul 30, 2015
    #2
  3. hookfromhell

    hookfromhell Well-Known Member Full Member

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    so does the video show any footage of Burt's list of fighters or any other fighting footage? Id love a cool HW video.
     
    hookfromhell, Jul 30, 2015
    hookfromhell, Jul 30, 2015
    #3
  4. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I've never liked the " who can beat who" system myself but his criteria contradicts itself. He talks about " best in their era" being his rating system, but some of those guys didn't even beat the best in their era. Who could possibly have shaped an era or even the entire sport for that matter more than Muhammad Ali? And while Larry Holmes may never have beaten a rival who equaled his abilities, having him down at #10 is ludicrous. Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, and Gerry C00ney were probably better than anyone Johnson or Dempsey beat as champions.
     
    mr. magoo, Jul 30, 2015
    mr. magoo, Jul 30, 2015
    #4
  5. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Sugar didn't know **** about boxing. He was expert at myth amd folklore.
     
    Seamus, Jul 30, 2015
    Seamus, Jul 30, 2015
    #5
  6. Boxing125

    Boxing125 Active Member Full Member

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    Yeah it shows footage of all the top 10 fighters and some of their fights but the distriibutuion is random. They show a lot of Ali - beating Liston, Foreman Frazier but hardly anything of Larry Holmes for instance. The highlights really is the discussion.
     
    Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015
    Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015
    #6
  7. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Sugar was more of a showman/boxing historian with a well defined schtik...the cigar and hat.
     
    red cobra, Jul 30, 2015
    red cobra, Jul 30, 2015
    #7
  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Suugar was not a historian. He was a self promoter. His knowledge of boxing history was a shallow puddle.
     
    klompton2, Jul 30, 2015
    klompton2, Jul 30, 2015
    #8
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    i went to Marciano Ali super fight function in Boston Garden in 2006. I sat next to boxing historian Kevin Smith. Sugar is a quack. I attempted to call him out when he claimed jersey Joe Walcotts prime was in the 1930s and Archie Moore being washed up in 1955 when he fought Marciano. I was next in line when the questions ended, too bad, I was ready to give him all the stats to debunk his points in front of hundreds of people. I confronted him individually after, and he just scoffed at my response. Wouldn't even give me the time. He was a quack.


    I sat with marcianos family for 20 min and got a lot of great information out of them.


    Peter Marciano was firm in saying "Rocky never ducked anyone." He said Rocky really wanted to fight Valdes and Patterson, and feared no one.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jul 30, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jul 30, 2015
    #9
  10. Boxing125

    Boxing125 Active Member Full Member

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    Thats a shame, everyone has an opinion. He did come across as arrogant in the documentary although he had charisma
     
    Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015
    Boxing125, Jul 30, 2015
    #10
  11. Foxy 01

    Foxy 01 Boxing Junkie banned

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    So by Sugar's own criteria which Heavyweight era was Ezzard Charles the best of?
     
    Foxy 01, Jul 30, 2015
    Foxy 01, Jul 30, 2015
    #11
  12. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I always found Sugar's hats and cigar --pretending he's some 1920's boxing writer-- to be embarrassing fantasy. No wonder he rates Dempsey so high. People like to romanticize 'The Roaring 20's". Dempsey's title reign was pathetic....Gerry ****ey was more active than Jack. He should not be that high.
     
    Vince Voltage, Jul 30, 2015
    Vince Voltage, Jul 30, 2015
    #12
  13. Boxing125

    Boxing125 Active Member Full Member

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    I don't even think Sugar's used a particular method - he just picked his favourites then used a ' best in their era' excuse to justify it.

    Jack Dempsey at number 3 is crazy when he didnt fight Langford, Willis or Grebb then lost to Tunney. He became a hero off the back of an exciting battle with Firpo who wasn't in the same class as those mentioned and Firpo was actually an ordinary fighter. Tyson actually fought in a similar style to Dempsey but at least Tyson beat some excellent boxers and was more active than Dempsey.

    Here is my top 10 for what its worth and am basing it on career achievement, greatness achieved and their boxing ability - the hardest part is picking the third greatest heavyweight of all time as there is no obvious candidate

    1. Muhammad Ali
    2. Joe Louis
    3. Larry Holmes
    4. Jack Johnson
    5. Rocky Marciano
    6. Lennox Lewis
    7. Joe Frazier
    8. George Foreman
    9. Mike Tyson
    10. Evander Holyfield
     
    Boxing125, Aug 1, 2015
    Boxing125, Aug 1, 2015
    #13
  14. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I have this DVD as well. Good watch all in all. I liked having guys like Holmes and Chuvalo as guests.
    Sugar was entertaining but his list was pretty flawed in places.
    Even by the criteria given, no way could Tunney or Charles be justified as top-10 guys today.
     
    fists of fury, Aug 1, 2015
    fists of fury, Aug 1, 2015
    #14
  15. Rope-a-Dope

    Rope-a-Dope Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The biggest problem I've always had with Sugar is his complete lack of self awareness. I remember in The Ring he'd always criticize Howard Cosell, most of which was accurate, but nearly all of which could apply to himself also.
     
    Rope-a-Dope, Aug 1, 2015
    Rope-a-Dope, Aug 1, 2015
    #15
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