ESPN Classic top 10 heavyweights

I loved Frazier and watched all of his bouts live from FOTC to Cummings. HOWEVER.....

He was never thought of as the best hwt of all times...never.

He won the title by beating Ellis not Mathis.

IF Joe is included on a top 10 ATG list it's because he was the only man to beat nearest to prime Ali. Ali of course is widely considered the best of all time. I personally don't think along those lines.

 

You can't strip the worlds hwt championship. Foreman was champion up until he lost that title in the ring.

 

I don't understand your point.

Prior to Foremans comeback he was never rated in any respectable top 10. Generally Joe was rated higher due to his win over Ali and the fact that George quit before his time. He was an unfinished book.

Foremans comeback to rewin the championship after 20 years erased all that. Arguably the greatest feat in sports history. Now he is looked at as top ten everywhere and I feel it's justified. One heck of an achievement even though it was greatly assisted by the watered down nature of modern boxing. So many champions and so many pathways to win a championship. Unsuccessful on one path? Go down another. With Foreman however he rewion the TRUE hwt championship of the world when he koed Moore. I rate him top 5 all time. I do not rate Joe in my top 10. Pains me since I loved watching him fight but I cannot find room for him.

 

Ridiculous

 

I take that as your white flag.

Even tho I disagree about Dempsey being in the Top 10, I can at least stomach an argument to be made for it.

However, electing Tunney to the Top 10 heavyweights, based only on his victories over a past-it Dempsey, is ludicrous. You are essentially saying that Dempsey was SO GREAT, his shadow SO LONG, that even taking a couple decisions over a faded version is good enough to beat out guys like Klitschko and Frazier.

 

No. I refuse to argue with a jerk who sole purpose on these boards is to start arguments. Yes that's you buddy.

Unlike you I know boxing from a technical standpoint. Tunney was so technically sound he needs to be in the top ten. He was only hwt champion not lt hwt champion so his ranking needs to be within the hwt ranks.

Sorry you have such a poor understanding of the sport. It shows big time.

 

Some of you guys focus on stats way too much. Stats can be important, but they are not everything.

Example-

Ken Norton went 0-3 in HW world title fights but he was the WBC HW champ in 1978.

Norton lost a decision to Ali in 1976, most people who have actually watched this fight feel that Norton won. In 1977 Norton stopped Duane Bobick KO 1 and Lorenzo Zanon KO5. In late 1977 Norton won a close decision over Jimmy Young. Young also lost a decision to Ali in 1976 (5 months before Norton) and many who saw it feel that Young should have won. Young went on to beat Ron Lyle for a second time. He would also beat George Foreman (he even dropped him).

Leon Spinks upset Ali for the HW world title and felt that a rematch with Ali would be more lucrative and less risky than fighting Norton. The WBC stripped Spinks and proclaimed Norton their champion.

Norton lost the WBC belt in his first defense, a SD to Larry Holmes in a very good fight. Norton was past prime but still fought well.

So, Norton went 2-3 vs. Ali, Young, and Holmes but all of these fights were close and some of them could have went either way. Some losses are as good as wins.


Frazier won the New York State Athletic Commission's HW World Title Belt. Frazier didn't enter the WBA tournament because he didn't have to. He knew that whoever won the tournament would have to fight him eventually. When Jimmy Ellis fought Frazier he was stopped in the 5th round and Frazier gained universal recognition as the HW world champ... but Ali would come back. Ali did come back and Frazier beat him too.

Bottom line... Frazier went 10-2 (8KO) in HW world title fights.

What matters is that Frazier beat the shlt out of some good fighters and even beat a very good Ali. I cant see ranking him ahead of George Foreman though. They actually fought and when they did... well, you should know what happened.

 

This isn't about where individuals rank fighters, it's about one individual,[you,] making statements that are wrong,and then trying to spin them as" factually incorrect," when they are pointed out, thereby implying there is some basis of truth in them when there is not.

 

A lot of people ripping Bert Sugar, I happened to have several conversations with the man, I found him extremely humorous and self deprecating. Just thought I'd share. As for his opinions and his "lists" I don't agree with many of them. However the man gave me time of his at events that he didn't need to and I was/am gracious for those moments.

As for the Foreman/Frazier debate. I prefer Joe's resume to George's but can not overlook the two head to head wipeouts of Frazier by Foreman. So Foreman goes ahead of Joe for me.

 

Ellis retired between the 4th and 5th rounds.
People will rank fighters where they will.
Bottom line Frazier defended his title 5 times, 4 times successfully, of those 4 successful defences only one was against a ranked heavyweight.He was champion just under 3 years ,for 2 of those years he defended solely against unranked no bodies.
Frazier's record against ATG's is W1. L4.