Evaluate Ali's and Frazier's performances in FOTC

Frazier's discipline aside, I don't think there are more than a handful fighters who could have kept going after their opponent and not waver taking the punishment that Frazier did.

Plenty can take it and stay there to take more, but take it like that and put pressure on your opponent every minute of every round takes incredible mental fortitude.

Fraziers performance was more special.

 

Was this the same ali from 66/67? The man who was robbed off his prime!! was joe ever the same after that fight? lets, be logical folks that was not the real ali was it?

 

This was the real Ali. Both in terms of what he was at that exact point in time, & that by any definition still great, even though deprived of the peak of his (mainly) foot speed & reflexes.

Shake is completely correct. You can feel it watching the fight.
To continue to be that effective, relentless, energetic yet controlled under pressure, BECOMING the pressure itself, not merely enduring...Highly unusual.

This is different from just being able to overpower, like prime Foreman against later Frazier. This focus & courage...Marciano is one of the few who could maintain this approach, but he may have lacked the speed & accuracy to execute it successfully.

 

Frazier put on the performance of his life. Constantly pressurising Ali while soaking up tremendous punishment. Joe took more solid blows to the head than Muhammad did. He put so much of himself into the fight and had to walk through hell to do it that he was never quite the same again. His absolute prime ended in this bout.


Ali,although rusty,was the most dangerous opponent that Frazier ever faced up to that point. In his good moments in the fight,he was displaying some awesome speed. It was just that he could n't sustain it for long periods. Muhammad also proved to any lingering doubters that he was tough as they come and could take hurt like no other heavyweight. Especially getting up from THAT knockdown in the final round,exhausted as he was. How many others could have done that ?

 

I think Ali was as good as he would have been had he been active throughout the lost years. Foley and WIlliams were old men. They flattered Ali. Had Ali continued he would have maintained that level of pace for perhaps one more year then he would have adapted his work rate some. The bonavena and Quarry wins on paper were better than Frazier had done against them and had given the returning champ excelent prep.

Ali was as good as ever against Frazier, he just lost the step of pace he would have lost anyway. Hand speed. Timing. It was all there. He even had good recent rounds under his belt because since his return he had been more active than Frazier. Rust dosnt come into it.

 

Isn't the thread called evaluate Ali and Fraziers performance? Surely one must start with evaluating Ali? I'm saying Ali was good. It was a good performance. Good hand speed. Prime timing. What's wrong with that?

 

I'm not sure which version of Ali was the best. The FOTC Ali had not developed his clinching and counter punching skills to their peak. Then again Ali was a bit faster in the 1960's.

Media clips tell a story that Frazier iced the win with the knockdown in the 15th rounds. Don't you believe it! Frazier badly hurt Ali in the 11th ( 10-8 round in my book ). The 11th round was the turning point of the fight.

 

Yes it was a tough fight and it always would have been at any point of Ali's career. Joe had Ali work harder even in the rounds he lost than any of his 1960s opponents did, and from the first round (when Ali was full pace) Joe could nail him from the off. The punch ratio favoured Ali but he was getting hit more times straight away from frazier-and always would have. Joe might have been losing rounds but for the first time Ali was against a guy who could catch him each round. It was not down to decline. Frazier was on his level. Always would have been.

Frazier was from Ali's generation. Liston, Cooper, Foley, London, Patterson, Williams, chuvalo all had one foot in the 1950s. Frazier was a 1960s fighter. As Mildenburger and Terrell had been. This is relevent to the discussion.

 

Good points choklab, & add Chuvalo to the mix of '60's fighters.

Yet that swarmer won 2-3 rounds, I think Frazier would have won a max of 6, though you can make a good argument either way. Ali lost some hand speed & reflexes, but mostly his preternatural foot speed & whole fight on toes & dancing ability.

I just do not think that the things he developed to compensate fully offset these lost talents. A more extreme layoff, but it analogous, roughly, to Big George becoming a wiser fighter, better endurance & pacing...But his lost decent speed & ring cutting abilities meant he was more EFFICIENT at using his talents, yet overall & H2H clearly better when young.

 

Very interesting insight :good Ali's seventies best was circa 1972-74. It's possible that he would have been at that very same level during that window had he been active during the last two and a half years of the sixties.

 

Very good thread as usual,Bokaj.