Evander Holyfield - Jack Dempsey

janitor · Oct 2, 2008

ChrisPontius said:

His opposition is not close to Holyfield's.

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Why not?

Many of Holyfields oponents derive their reputations largley on their wins over Holyfield just as Gene Tunney derives his reputation largley on his win over Dempsey.

Holyfield in turn derives his reputation largley from his win over Tyson.

It is, but:

1. Willard's resume isn't exactly thick, either. An old, fat, unmotivated Johnson, a peak Dempsey and Firpo are the most important names on it.

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I think that Willard had a better chin than Jack Dempsey based on his performence against common oponents and their testimonies. While the durability of Willard dosnt exactly leap out of his paper record contemporary testimonies make him out to be McCall like at his best. The guys who were putting Dempsey into a daze seemingly wernt even making Willard blink.

2. Bowe never got stopped, whereas the two best punchers (and the only notable punchers) Willard ever faced, both stopped him.

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I wouldnt say they were the only notable punchers Willard faced. Jack Johnson and Gunboat Smith would have to be mentioned.

As for big punchers Willar beat:

Carl Morris 6' 4'' 235 lbs

Frank Moran 6' 1'' 210 lbs

Luther McCarthy 6' 4'' 205 lbs

Arthur Pelkey 6' 2'' 204 lbs

Its not like he was just fighting smaller guys.

Lewis faced:
Mason
Tyson
Klitschko
Tua
Bruno
Briggs
Tucker
Ruddock
Morrison
Mercer
McCall I
McCall II
Rahman I
Rahman II
Holyfield I
Holyfield II
Grant

Out of all of those, only Rahman and McCall knocked him down. Want to weigh that against the punchers Willard faced:

Dempsey
Firpo

Both of whom stopped Willard? In addition, he quit against some dude named Joe Cox, perhaps saving himself from another stoppage loss.

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Lewis has certainly faced more punchers but McCall and Ramhan arnt exactly way beyond anything Willard has faced.

Call it a product of depth of resume if you like but it is still a question mark over his chin.

I do not think that Willard would have gone the distance against Dempsey in his prime but it is no inconceivable that he could have stretched Firpo or even beaten him.
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Arka · Oct 2, 2008

janitor said:

What I wouldnt give to see him try.
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Hehe.This is the full quote from the Ring Magazine Sept 200.The article is "Boxing Old-Timers - 'Magical or Mythical'" by Phil Berger

'Back in '68,heavy-weight contender Jerry Quarry would tell me:"Dempsey's hands were bunched close against his chest.He came straight in at you ,low,with the weave,of course,and the hook started from out to the side of his body-not a quick chop,but a real sidearm swing,which wasted space and wasted time.Sure,he hit hard when he landed.But against the quick,sharp guys around today,Dempsey would be knocked flat on his duff the moment he got halfway into that hook-by a fast move in,and a right hand crossed to his head.
"And I've seen the rest of them on film... Baer, Carnera, Willard, Firpo, Sharkey... They fought with their hands down,like a bunch of washerwomen. Forget it,Friend.Of the old bunch,the only one who would bother me,mentally,in advance,would be Marciano.The rest I'd figure to take out without much trouble."'
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janitor · Oct 2, 2008

Arka said:

Hehe.This is the full quote from the Ring Magazine Sept 200.The article is "Boxing Old-Timers - 'Magical or Mythical'" by Phil Berger
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It seems that every era has sombody troting out that argument whether it is Jim Corbett talking about how he was more modern than Jem Mace, or Evander Holyfield making the same argument today.

The irony is that Quarry specialised in leading chin first more than virtualy all the champions who presceeded him.

PowerPuncher · Oct 3, 2008

Stonehands89 said:

1. You speak with false authority.

2. I'm afraid that I'm dealing with an ignoramus who has an agenda. There's a whole lot more proof that Dempsey threw that fight than there is that "Dempsey isn't landing against top opposition."

3.It's clear that the phrase "stylized slugging" flew pretty far over your head.

4. Pay attention. Tyson came into this discussion because of his fight with Holyfield ---in 1996. If you want to start a new thread with 1919 Dempsey vs. 1988 Tyson, then do it. But first, go google the "straw man fallacy".

5. ....You add a measly 4 individuals and try to revise history. Idiocy.

6. Straw man fallacy. I never said that.

7. Holyfield's heart? What does that matter? "'Heart' is the biggest overrated aspect of boxing" --your words. Then you turn around and say that most or all elite fighters have heart. But it doesn't matter?

....You're tying yourself up in knots.
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1. No I'm putting and end to your Dempsey masterbation session

2. No proof of a dive, heresay and fans excuses does not equal proof, do you also think Wlad was drugged against Brewster. Dempsey lost against Flyn in his prime, he offered no excuse. Your simply excuse making, theres heresay around every excuse, but thats all they are

3. "stylized slugging" = losing to bums like Flynn and nearly losing to another bum in Firpo

4. No you pay attention, your excuse for Dempsey when he steps up against top opposition and loses while being schooled is 'past prime', while ignoring the fact prior to this he avoided the best opposition of his day

5. 'Dempsey is the bestest bestest ever because he had a hard life and that means he beats technically superior, stronger fighters because he had it harder' STFU ******

6. Your points add up to rating Dempsey wins on heart despite having inferior technique

7. You pick Dempsey based on the assumption he had a greater heart, while ignoring who had the greater technical and physical ability. Dempsey's heard certainly isnt proven given the ducking tactics. Its the same prediction method Gatti fans used who predicted a win over Mayweather. Heart doesn't stop you getting your ass whipped

PowerPuncher · Oct 3, 2008

Arka said:

'Back in '68,heavy-weight contender Jerry Quarry would tell me:"Dempsey's hands were bunched close against his chest.He came straight in at you ,low,with the weave,of course,and the hook started from out to the side of his body-not a quick chop,but a real sidearm swing,which wasted space and wasted time.Sure,he hit hard when he landed.But against the quick,sharp guys around today,Dempsey would be knocked flat on his duff the moment he got halfway into that hook-by a fast move in,and a right hand crossed to his head.
"And I've seen the rest of them on film... Baer, Carnera, Willard, Firpo, Sharkey... They fought with their hands down,like a bunch of washerwomen. Forget it,Friend.Of the old bunch,the only one who would bother me,mentally,in advance,would be Marciano.The rest I'd figure to take out without much trouble."'
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This is the point I was making from a great contender, although Jerry could be cocky and I wouldn't pick him over Dempsey, the others he mention I would pick him to outbox and outcounter

PowerPuncher · Oct 3, 2008

janitor said:

Nobody came close to putting him away like Dempsey did including Harry Wills. Fulton was seen as the the outstanding heavyweight challenger at the time incidentaly.

Holyfield would not put him away like Dempsey did. Frankly I dont know if Tyson would.
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Fulton was a china chin, Wills put him away in 3 and Wills wasnt that aggressive, Tyson puts him away in 5seconds, Holyfield probably takes his time and puts him away in 2miniutes ofthe first

janitor · Oct 3, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

Fulton was a china chin, Wills put him away in 3 and Wills wasnt that aggressive,
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Wills could be agresive when he wanted to and was probably a harder puncher than Holyfield.

Tyson puts him away in 5seconds,
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No would class heavyweight has ever been put away in 5 seconds by anybody. You are just spouting random nonsense here.

Holyfield probably takes his time and puts him away in 2miniutes ofthe first
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When has Holyfield put any world class oponent away in one round however weak his chin was?

Honestly you are just talking out of your ars* here.
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McGrain · Oct 3, 2008

Dempsey is hsyterically overated - the most overated fighter of all - in terms of greatness. But he is hideously underated head to head. The board shows again and again an inability to bridge the gap between the two, that is the very reason Demspey threads go so.

I suggest everyone moves Demspey down three spots on their ATG lists, so even McVey's looks sane, and everybody who's been picking Hollfyield to beat Dempsey easily admits they are on the windup.

But basically gents, until you all do one or the other, you'd be as well sending smoke signals to each other.

PowerPuncher · Oct 3, 2008

janitor said:

1. Wills could be agresive when he wanted to and was probably a harder puncher than Holyfield.

2. No would class heavyweight has ever been put away in 5 seconds by anybody. You are just spouting random nonsense here.

3. When has Holyfield put any world class oponent away in one round however weak his chin was?

Honestly you are just talking out of your ars* here.
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1. Theres no evidence of Wils being a harder puncher than Holyfield

2. Im having a laugh with you here Janitor, Tyson would certainly put Fulton away inside the round though and quite possibly inside a miniute

3. Not sure Fulton and 'World Class' belong in the same sentence :hey Holyfield didnt usually put away his man that quick but then again hes been matched ultra hard since before he fought Qawi for a world
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janitor · Oct 3, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

janitor said:

1. Theres no evidence of Wils being a harder puncher than Holyfield

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I will try to tie this in to point 3.

2. Im having a laugh with you here Janitor, Tyson would certainly put Fulton away inside the round though and quite possibly inside a miniute

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That I can agree with.

Dare I suggest that even Tyson might not have matched Dempseys 23 second demolition?

3. Not sure Fulton and 'World Class' belong in the same sentence :hey
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Going into the Dempsey fight Fulton was regarded as being second only to the champion (Willard) among the contemporary heavyweights. Rightly or wrongly.

People thought Fulton Dempsey was a 50/50 type fight.

In hindsight Harry Wills was obviously a much better fighter than Fulton though he was having a slow patch at the time and Fulton was on a high.

Holyfield didnt usually put away his man that quick but then again hes been matched ultra hard since before he fought Qawi for a world

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Wills was arguably matched harder than any other heavyweight in history.

Like Holyfield he generaly broke em down but I would draw atention to the following:

Going into the fight with Harry Wills Fulton had only one stopage loss in the past 3 years and 38 fights. That was of course at the hands of Dempsey. I think Wills should get some credit for this demolition.
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PowerPuncher · Oct 3, 2008

janitor said:

PowerPuncher said:

I will try to tie this in to point 3.

1. That I can agree with.

Dare I suggest that even Tyson might not have matched Dempseys 23 second demolition?

2. Going into the Dempsey fight Fulton was regarded as being second only to the champion (Willard) among the contemporary heavyweights. Rightly or wrongly.

3. People thought Fulton Dempsey was a 50/50 type fight.

4. In hindsight Harry Wills was obviously a much better fighter than Fulton though he was having a slow patch at the time and Fulton was on a high.

5. Wills was arguably matched harder than any other heavyweight in history.

6. Like Holyfield he generaly broke em down but I would draw atention to the following:Going into the fight with Harry Wills Fulton had only one stopage loss in the past 3 years and 38 fights. That was of course at the hands of Dempsey. I think Wills should get some credit for this demolition.
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1. Yes but would Dempsey take out Spinks as fast? The speed of a KO isnt that indicitive of a fighters power/offense. Sometimes you can just be 'caught cold' in the first round and smashed before your properly warmed up. Wasnt Fullton supposed to be clowning in the first?

2. I would say Fulton was considered the second best white heavyweight because surely Wills was rated above him with anyone with any objectivity

3. Interestingly Lennox-Golotta, Lennox-Rudduck and Tyson-Spinks were seen largely as 50-50 type fights

4. Wills was already far more proven and accomplised than Fulton

5. Wills matched harder than any HW? No chance, the HWs he faced lack variety of depth and simply werent as great, there is an argument he didnt face prime fighters and didnt face the best white heavies (not his fault). I'm a big admirer of WIlls and think hes criminally underrated legacy wise but the depth of his resume is a little lacking

6. Yes Fulton had a good run but his chin seems suspect, from his performances against Dempsey/Wills/Miske
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janitor · Oct 3, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

1. Yes but would Dempsey take out Spinks as fast?

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Not necisarily. But that is just the point.

Both are all time great demolitions that you couldnt count on anybody to duplicate.

The speed of a KO isnt that indicitive of a fighters power/offense. Sometimes you can just be 'caught cold' in the first round and smashed before your properly warmed up. Wasnt Fullton supposed to be clowning in the first?

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Not from what I have read. Fulton was a mouse who went straight for the cheese on the mousetrap on this ocasion.

He bit on Dempseys first feint, when he thought he had an opening, and three punches later it was over.

Fulton didnt realise quite how dangerous Dempsey was early and got caught on the first possible opening.

Fluke?

Perhaps but either way it would be almost impossible to repeat.

2. I would say Fulton was considered the second best white heavyweight because surely Wills was rated above him with anyone with any objectivity

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In hindsight obviously Wills was better.

Fulton had just dominated an old Sam Langford while Wills went on to have trouble with him. This made people think that Fulton was the real deal and the coming man.

When Dempsey destroyed him everybody was stunned.

3. Interestingly Lennox-Golotta, Lennox-Rudduck and Tyson-Spinks were seen largely as 50-50 type fights

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They are good analogies.

4. Wills was already far more proven and accomplised than Fulton

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Yes he was but he wasnt really going anywhere. He was just beating up washed up versions of Langford and McVea repeatedly and not getting fights with the top white contenders. Some people thought him a spent force.

After Dempsey won the title he staged a surge like invasion of the white heavyweight ranks beating guys like Fulton and Firpo.

5. Wills matched harder than any HW? No chance, the HWs he faced lack variety of depth and simply werent as great, there is an argument he didnt face prime fighters and didnt face the best white heavies (not his fault). I'm a big admirer of WIlls and think hes criminally underrated legacy wise but the depth of his resume is a little lacking

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OLD FOGEY did some superb analysis of competition of top heavyweights which produced some interesting conclusions. He compared the number of wins that various fighters had over top 10 ranked oponents using a conservative estimate of which fighters would break the top 10 prior to ring magazines rankings. Guess who came on top?

1. Harry Wills
2. Muhamad Ali
3. Joe Louis

While we will all form different interpretations of the era Wills fought in his depth of fights against the best of his era is literaly incredible.

This is not a top 20 all time heavyweight he should be in your top 15.

6. Yes Fulton had a good run but his chin seems suspect, from his performances against Dempsey/Wills/Miske

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All great fighters.

You are right of course. His chin was cr4p. I will make the point however that top fighters of that era with cr4p chins get knocked out a lot early and late in their careers (due to harsh matching). But there is a period around their primes where they only get stopped by the best fighters.
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Bokaj · Oct 3, 2008

McGrain said:

Dempsey is hsyterically overated - the most overated fighter of all - in terms of greatness. But he is hideously underated head to head. The board shows again and again an inability to bridge the gap between the two, that is the very reason Demspey threads go so.

I suggest everyone moves Demspey down three spots on their ATG lists, so even McVey's looks sane, and everybody who's been picking Hollfyield to beat Dempsey easily admits they are on the windup.

But basically gents, until you all do one or the other, you'd be as well sending smoke signals to each other.
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I actually think that Dempsey, in terms of ability for his time, probably easily qualifies for top 10. But since he was lazy and didn't take on the best he had to face (used the colour line) I can't put him there with good consciense.

But if you transport the Dempsey from 1919 into a ring with Holyfield in 1991 I think Holyfield beats him simply because boxing evolved during those years. I won't say that Quarry would beat Dempsey, but I do think he had a point.

Bokaj · Oct 3, 2008

janitor said:

OLD FOGEY did some superb analysis of competition of top heavyweights which produced some interesting conclusions. He compared the number of wins that various fighters had over top 10 ranked oponents using a conservative estimate of which fighters would break the top 10 prior to ring magazines rankings. Guess who came on top?

1. Harry Wills
2. Muhamad Ali
3. Joe Louis

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Isn't it just too sad that Wills didn't get the chance he deserved. He should get into my top 10, maybe my top 3 from the looks of it. If you have any film of him, please post it.

mcvey · Oct 3, 2008

janitor said:

Why not?

Many of Holyfields oponents derive their reputations largley on their wins over Holyfield just as Gene Tunney derives his reputation largley on his win over Dempsey.

Holyfield in turn derives his reputation largley from his win over Tyson.

I think that Willard had a better chin than Jack Dempsey based on his performence against common oponents and their testimonies. While the durability of Willard dosnt exactly leap out of his paper record contemporary testimonies make him out to be McCall like at his best. The guys who were putting Dempsey into a daze seemingly wernt even making Willard blink.

I wouldnt say they were the only notable punchers Willard faced. Jack Johnson and Gunboat Smith would have to be mentioned.

As for big punchers Willar beat:

Carl Morris 6' 4'' 235 lbs

Frank Moran 6' 1'' 210 lbs

Luther McCarthy 6' 4'' 205 lbs

Arthur Pelkey 6' 2'' 204 lbs

Its not like he was just fighting smaller guys.

Lewis has certainly faced more punchers but McCall and Ramhan arnt exactly way beyond anything Willard has faced.

Call it a product of depth of resume if you like but it is still a question mark over his chin.

I do not think that Willard would have gone the distance against Dempsey in his prime but it is no inconceivable that he could have stretched Firpo or even beaten him.
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Gun- boat Smith said Willard could take his best punch without any reaction,and Smith was a banger
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