Evander Holyfield - "small" heavyweight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Jul 22, 2010.


  1. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

    15,756
    99
    Dec 26, 2009

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Q4K72KqAs&feature=youtube_gdata[/ame]


    1:32... I don't think he's 6'4 but I guess his trainer says a lot of things?
     
  2. p.Townend

    p.Townend Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,400
    4
    Jan 14, 2009
    I think its more to do with weight than height.It was hard trying to explain this to some of my friends when Holy faced Tyson.Holy looked the bigger man but he was built up(through hard work)Tyson was a natural heavy.The Bowe fights give a better example of Holyfield being a small heavyweight.
     
  3. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    Bowe was a bit of a big heavyweight, though, graded on the large curve.

    Holyfield happened to give up some size in a few of his most famous and highly publicized encounters, but as illustrated in my original post almost half of his opponents at heavyweight alone were smaller vertically, and a good number of his opponents also weighed about the same or a little less.

    Whether he was a natural 210-220lbs or bulked himself up is irrelevant...he wore the extra muscle quite well and did not sacrifice any athletic integrity. In fact he was quite agile and fluid for such a well-muscled heavyweight and this probably gave him an advantage over opponents who weighed more but had more fatty tissue.

    Other than genetic freaks and fat slobs, Holyfield is perfectly average by every metric. His height certainly is average for a modern heavyweight, and his weight - regardless of how he came to weigh it - is the ideal of what a well-conditioned heavyweight of his height ought to weigh. and was probably above average in muscle mass compared to fat. That isn't a disadvantage and doesn't make him "small".
     
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  4. Prince

    Prince Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,626
    0
    May 9, 2010
    Definitely not small. A average sized heavyweight in my opinion.
     
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,991
    20,573
    Sep 15, 2009
    I've never ever thought of Holyfield as a small HW.

    This is the exact reason I'm beginning to feel the same would be true of Jack Dempsey.
     
  6. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    :good

    There was a growing trend for a while to cast him in that light, as the perennial underdog, by making him out to be this minuscule cruiser who said his prayers, ate his vitamins and lifted some weights and through sheer will and hard work caked on enough brawn to rumble on even terms with guys twice his size on a regular basis in a division at which he never had any business competing, let alone excelling. Pure fantasy.

    What always struck me as odd was that none of those same people would extend that 'extra credit' Tyson's way. He wasn't some tiny,plucky giantslayer, but Holyfield was. :blood

    Dude was a ginormous cruiser.
     
  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    Holy : HW :: GGG : MW

    Both bang on average. :good
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,243
    26,567
    Feb 15, 2006
    He is small when you judge him against the lowest weight that he came up from, but on that basis he would have been medium at best in the Joe Louis era.

    He probably is the best model for how the greats of the past, might have done against the superheavyweight giants of recent years.

    With the obvious qualifier that he lacked a dynamite punch, which is the most important equalizer for smaller heavyweights.
     
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  9. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    Sure, but even though he did happen to start at cruiser you don't consider him small compared with, say, Byrd, do you?

    Contradictorily, I've seen many claim that Byrd could've started & reigned at cruiser yet nobody ever seems to give him the extra kudos that Holyfield gets for clawing their way to HW titles whilst undersized and lacking a proper HW punch (truer for Byrd than it was for Holy!)

    ...and Chris far more often found himself in the giantslayer role on the wrong end of size mismatches. He fought K2 thrice, Ike, TOS, McCline, Golota, Ribalta (granted, not all elites but all contenders at the least...and numerically that all squares to more than compensate for a Bowe trilogy and pair with Lewis, with the brothers adding some legitimacy in terms of quality) - I think his only substantial advantage in size over a name opponent, ever, was Cooper?

    Hell, nobody even sings his praises for bravely, past his prime, getting in the ring with a prime Sasha, who bullied him with size as much as youth and skill - and most objective people in moments of sober clarity agree that Holyfield is roughly of a size with Povetkin!! (literally to within half an inch, with Holy actually the larger man going by official tale of tape...and Holy's natural frame is closer to Povetkin's than Byrd's, weightlifting bulk notwithstanding)
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,243
    26,567
    Feb 15, 2006
    No, I don't.

    That is a very valid point.

    Byrd probably denied himself a p4p ranking, by leaving the Cruiserweight pretenders to fight among themselves!

    Again, all very valid.

    Ultimately, I have to agree with you.

    Others won’t, because they want to pretend that Byrd was as big as Sonny Liston!
     
  11. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    Hooray, validation!

    [yt]AxK9qJCpH-8[/yt]
     
  12. ticar

    ticar Well-Known Member banned Full Member

    2,264
    763
    Dec 7, 2008
    holy was a small heavyweight, without hard weight lifting and roids, he could probably make lightheavyweight. he's actually a big light heavyweight, and probably slightly small cruiserweight. he was as tough as nails and had a great chin and heart though
     
  13. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    [yt]xoMgnJDXd3k[/yt]
     
  14. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    396,309
    78,572
    Nov 30, 2006
    :lol: Don't just repeat the bare essence of the stance against which I've constructed a meticulous polemic without addressing the key arguments or providing new insights! :beat
     
    MexicanInsanity likes this.
  15. ticar

    ticar Well-Known Member banned Full Member

    2,264
    763
    Dec 7, 2008
    you keep talking about weights. let's look at one example.

    sonny liston weigh in 215 lbs, without even touching a weight, just old school boxing training regime, let alone roids.

    liston had a big frame - wide shoulders and back, huge hands and wrists, just a big boned frame.

    on the other hand, evander came to 215 after years of a hard weight lifting training and was obviously on juice.

    if liston was on the holyfield's regime, he would have been 230 - 240 lbs in shape.

    holyfield natural weight was probably about 190 lbs. he bulked 30 lbs lifting weights and roiding