Evander Holyfield vs Joe Frazier

Good fight, I've always said that when it's mentioned. With that said, I've always picked Holyfield... and I will again.

Holyfield is 3" taller, has a 4 1/2" longer reach, and is a few Lbs. heavier. I only bring this up because if you look at Holyfield's rise to HW in 1988 thru 1992 (age 30). He was usually the shorter and lighter fighter at HW. When he did fight the shorter stockier fighters (while in his prime), he had little problems.

He fought Hall of Famer Dwight Qawi in just his 12th pro fight and won by 15 round SD. Sure, Qawi gave him problems but Holyfield would become a much better fighter. In their rematch Holyfield stopped Qawi in the 4th round. The only other fighter who was able to stop Qawi was George Foreman (KO7). When Holyfield fought guys who were shorter than himself like Carlos DeLeon, Ossie Ocasio, Henry Tillman, Alex Stewart, Bert Cooper (except for one moment in the 3rd round), and even Hall of Famer Mike Tyson (when both were a little past prime)... he dominated.

Holyfield fought guys a little taller and heavier like Thomas (KO7) and Dokes (KO10) and dominated. He stopped Douglas, who was much bigger but clearly out of shape. He decisioned Hall of Famers Foreman and Holmes who were much bigger. He went toe to toe with George Foreman and held up very well.

Frazier was stopped by a younger and lighter George Foreman twice but can we gather anything by comparing how Holyfield and Frazier did vs. Foreman?

I think Holyfield's speed, footwork, strength, and ability to take Frazier's punches would be a big factor in this fight.

 

Yeah I'm really not seeing how so many people are picking Frazier here... I mean Holy is clearly the far more complete fighter. It's not even close in this regard. Which is why it's so perplexing to see so many picking Frazier. Not only was Holy more complete and skilled but he'd also be the bigger fighter.. with the longer reach. People also aren't factoring in how Holy could adapt to certain fights and fight a little different. If something wasn't working with Joe.. he has more tricks in the bag to switch things up. IMO it would go the distance but Holy would be the clear winner as well.

 

Yeah, he threw his famous right-hook to the body, right-uppercut to the head combo in that round.

I meant to mention it earlier, but that also seemed to start the trend of boxers wearing the cups way too high. Or at least that was the first fight I really noticed it.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/31d13e497b9a6e9293c9ec391a419556/tumblr_mw0jk1To801rnxl9do1_500.jpg

http://www.boxing.com/images/sized/images/articles/evander-tyson-530x317.jpg


Then in 1999 when Holyfield fought Lewis:


http://boxingkodvds.com/images/career-lewis1.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2006/1207/box_ap_holyfield_lewis_275.jpg








Ridiculous.

 

The '69 Frazier at 203 against Quarry went it from the get go he wouldn't stand still and stand straight up like Smokin Bert did against Holyinviting the uppercut with a cross arm defence.
When people say Frazier was as low started they obviously haven't seen this fight - he kept tucked up and his guard high (and conventional not inviting uppercuts) - obviously Frazier was able to lock up in close with Quarry but he was steaming from the start.
He did tend to allow the other guy a couple of shots whilst he wound up and got his own leverage to rip a shot of his own back but when he had chance to load up with 2 or 3 shots in a Roche was hurting Quarry and making him concede first - but Quarry was willingly slugging it out (literally head-to-head), which is something Holyfield would never do.
Whenever Holyfield did Frazier would love it but Holy would have to use lateral movement and angles - he'd never really stand and trade shot for shot because Frazier would steam roll him eventually. He'd use short bursts of shots - whenever Bert Cooper managed to get in close properly the glove would be up on the back of the neck prompting the ref to break and separate back to a distance again. But then Cooper was NOWHERE NEAR busy enough and and was standing up too straight half the time and too often when he was punching he seemed to be more concerned with matching speed rather than actually getting real big power into his shots - I think he should've went more with his power but I see that a lot in Holyfield fights - he has a way of tempting people into trying to out-time him with his speed and in-and-out movement - and the cross arm type defence Bert would put up kinda suited Holy's uppercuts down to the ground - half the time he looked like a sitting duck - Frazier would come in underneath and fast and let's his shots go - Holy would have a real fight on his hands - also when leaning in Holy often stopped punching which is another area I see Frazier making Holy uncomfortable.
And when Cooper hurt him, Bert just got a bit over excited went crazy and lost his head a bit and just start swinging blindly not placing his shots and unloading shot after shot at the head? Where were the body shots - Frazier would be much more more precise and would use body shots and get hooks around the guard - I don't think Holyfield would get away if Frazier had him as hurt as Cooper had him and Frazier I think would start to hurt Holy within 3 rounds - he started hurting everyone eventually - I don't see Holy hurting Frazier too much - Quarry didn't really shake him in first 3 rounds of torrid action and that was eating a lot of leather?
Plus Holy wasnot bigger than Frazier - he was a cruiser really, he had a skinnier leaner build, skinnier shoulders, skinnier waist by a couple of inches, skinnier legs by about 5 inches - Frazier was 203-205, Holy 208 generally but spread out over a taller height.

I think it would go maybe 8 rounds because Holy wouldn't stand still like many of the toughies Frazier KO'd but it would be a brutal fight if Holy did get down in the trenches with Frazier but I think Holy would always be the first to try to get out and try to use angles and speed - even when he did slug it out with the big boys as he was famed for doing it was on his terms and when he'd decided he had a moment to unload - someone suggested earlier that he stood "toe-to-toe with George Foreman!!? This is laughable he could never stand toe to toe with Foreman EVER? He never stopped moving if he could help it!?

 

Eras (mainly) and steroids Ku, nothing more. But my words fall on deaf ears.

 

You could start out by watching the video of the Cooper/Holyfield fight to see why people are picking Joe Frazier. Smokin Joe was one of the greatest infighters in heavyweight history. Its not really perplexing at all.

With that said I don`t criticize anyone for picking Holyfield either. He was capable of winning and this fight would be war everytime.

 

good and well thought out post.

That's how I see it playing out. And Evander absorbs much better to the head than the body. Actually, I tend to think he's one of those guys that will give you his head when he does get hurt to the body.

The other big factor is the right hand of Frazier. the one nobody says he uses. Wrong. He uses it about 90% of the time to the body and he just doesn't miss. What it isn't is flashy.

I just never thought Evander matched up well against highly accurate fighters. And Joe is very accurate and has the added ability of being the rare breed that can throw punches while moving those feet. A stationary plodder would help the Holyfield chances a ton. But this guy is the polar opposite of that.

 

This is an all time great fight and I like Joe .. He matches Evander on heart. He hits significantly harder. He has a higher punch output and has better stamina .. in addition it is his own user under rated hand speed and defense .. it is an amazing fight but I simply don't think Evander could keep up with him down the stretch, especially if it is for 15 ..

 

Who did Frazier beat that is analagous to Holy?

Do you not agree that Holy is the more complete well rounded fighter?

Which again is why the pick seems easy to me... Holy could very well just outbox Joe from the outside and not even need to go to war. He had that adatability that Joe lacks. So I'll go with the more skilled and complete fighter who also happens to be bigger with a longer reach and more adaptable.

 

You make some good points here, as always ... Agreed,Holy is more well rounded than Frazier. But, I think this fight gets fought in a phone booth... When did Holy ever turn down a good old fashioned war ? Now when they DO get inside, well rounded goes right out the window... Holy, is not in Frazier`s class when it comes to inside warfare, and I think frazier hurts him to the body as well. Not to mention that Frazier had good skills at cutting off a ring (Ali) and keeping the fight at close range. Holy does NOT have Foreman like power to back of Frazier... So where does that leave the bulk of this fight, in the trenches, and I like Frazier... Bowe lit up Holy inside and Bowe is not the infighter that Frazier was...

 

Typical solid response WayneG and it could go that way. IF I did, Yes Frazier would be in his world and have a much better chance at winning. I will say though.. that I disagree about Joe being the better inside fighter. Joe is given a lot of credit for being a great inside figther which I think is only partially true. It was his pressure that made his infighting special.. not just his infighting skills. What I mean by that.. is Holy is a much more diverse inside fighter... He throw a much bigger variety of punches when on the inside... Hooks with both hands to the head and body.. uppercuts with either hand. as well as MUCH better use of angles while still in the pocket. Joe didn't use angles inside like holy nor did he have the punch variety of Holy. If you watch Holy fight.. you'll see this great use of angles and coming in and out of the pocket and unleashing 5 or 6 two fisted combos. He could do that in the pocket and just danchign around in the pocket throwing blows or stepping back and then back in while doing this. Point is, that is something that would keep Joe off balance and not let him set for punches. Fighters like Ali for example didn't use angles while fighting joe on the inside.. he just tried to go straight backwards or fight of his backfoot. Holy did very little fighting of his back food on the inside or outside. joe excelled when a fighter just when in straight lines back... that wouldn't be the case here. not saying Frazier could win.. I would just expect Holy to come out on top bud.

 

He did have a better chin but Joe's wasn't bad. The only guy to really KO him was George Foreman - that doesnt make you a glass chin. And it still took 6-7 knockdowns before George could actually finish him.

 

Seriously, this is what I really enjoy about Eastside. You come on here, solid thread,many opinions. I read yours and it`s like damn ! I can start to look at it a whole different way ! Hey pal, truth is it`s a damn near pick-em fight !!! We just needed to have them fight and we wouldn`t have to argue

 

Frazier beat Ali and Jimmy Ellis .. both were excellent boxers with terrific jabs and movement .. both sharp hitters ..

It is not a matter of who is the more rounded fighter. This is not a bar graph. It's who would win. Holyfield rivaled Dempsey in his inability to not brawl when engaged .. the only time I remember him doing it was in the second Bowe fight and a bit part of that was Bowe's less than stelar conditioning .. in addition, in spite of his marvelous build Evander got winded quite a bit and I can see Joe wearing him out ..

 

Alot of heavyweights were more "well rounded" than Joe but the dimension that Frazier had was a helluva dimension. Joe Frazier was a powerpunching, pressure fighter who had an iron chin and endless stamina with a high workrate and brutal body assault. In his prime he was a force.

Joe beat Ali and Quarry. Jerry was a smaller version of Holyfield but he did have similar power and threw the same kinds of combinations. Ofcourse Evander doesn`t cut the way Quarry did.

Im not knocking you or anyone for picking Holyfield {he could win the fight} though I don`t think it`s realistic to say that Evander could keep Joe on the outside and outbox him.

Holyfield doesn`t have the tools or the mentality to keep Joe Frazier at bay.If Ali couldn`t keep Joe outside how would Holyfield? It wouldn`t happen. This fight would be at close quarters and mid range. That is where Frazier lived. That`s why I would give him an edge here though I never count out Evander Holyfield.