- Wills has the better resume - Wills "would fight Jack on any street corner". - Wills fought at the top for longer. - Wills would have been champion were he white. - Wills is the greater HW, title credentials aside. - WILLS IS THE GREATER HEAVYWEIGHT Harry Wills is rated below Jack Dempsey on modern HW lists specifically because of race. It is not that people who rate him below Dempsey are racist - at all - it is that people are bound by politics of a previous generation. What possible reason exsists for ranking Dempsey above Wills?
I think there are some people who rate Wills higher believe it or not, and for those who don't, its probably because Jack had a sort of charisma that Wills didn't. Sometimes things work out that way.
I agree Magoo, but it's time for a generation to lob that off. The only reason to rate Dempsey above Wills is his "greatness", supported by the racially dominant society. No other reasoning exsists. Tim to shrug that off.
Wills was made to order for Dempsey. Society was viciously racist at the time and boxing is a business. Either Tex Richard or Doc Kearns (I always mix those two up) pulled the plug because they feared the fight would tank money wise. It is not Dempsey's fault although like many whites at the time he might have had a tinge of racism in his makeup - who knows? Dempsey's manager decided against a fight with Lanford in 1918 and a fight with Wills in 1924. It is a shame for Dempsey's current legacy cause' I think He would beat em' both inside the distance.
I have no argument with you, McGrain. I won't rate Wills in my top 10, because he never defeated Dempsey. You won't find Jack in there either. I've never really done a top 20, but I doubt either of them make my top 15. Had one defeated the other, the winner would most definitely make my top 12. I blame Dempsey more than Wills for the fight never materializing, but I can't reward either fighter for a fight that was never won.
So? Tyson is made for Holyfield. Read the original post again. Which of it is not true because of the opinions you hold?
What possible reason exists for Wills being ranked below Dempsey aside from a title, for which Wills was not alllowed to fight for primarily due to his race?
I don't see Wills beating Dempsey or Tunney but I am no boxing savant either. You guys are way more knowledgable about the various resume's of these fighters. I know Wills fought those excellent black heavyweights like Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette, Langford, etc. I just think his style would be made to order for someone like the Manassa Mauler. Wills is probably lucky too that he never fought Dempsey on a street corner. That would have been suicidal.
Jack Dempsey is rated above Harry Wills because he ripped through a fresh crop of good fighters - Wills beat on dead horses.
I entirely agree with you as far as Dempsey goes (not Tunney). But my point is that when has this been a reason to keep one fighter rated below the other? Wills has better wins. More longevity. Was ducked by the champion. Dempsey has: a title reign. some h2h speculation. Consistant rating of Dempsey above Wills is based upon a racist notion of title for which Wills was not allowed to fight. I am not blaming Dempsey. Perhaps he was the better fighter. If he was, he did not prove it, aside frome embracing a racist institution. Tme to let it go. Wills should rate higher universally.
You are WAY more knowlegable about boxing than I. However, take the common opponent Jack Sharkey. Both were past their primes when each fought him. Wills was getting handily beaten perhaps even on his way to being stopped when he fouled out. Dempsey was also being shellacked and pulled it out with a one punch kayo.
3-10 of my heavyweight list are separated by very little, Wills is in there, right along with Dempsey. I rate Dempsey higher head to head and pound for pound based on how good of a fighter I think he was, and I also think his resume is underrated. - Wills has the better resume Certainly, but not by a ****-load. - Wills "would fight Jack on any street corner". I can't be sure, but I think Wills was a pretty level-headed dude, so I doubt he'd be getting into street-fights willy-nilly. Also, if he beat Dempsey in a street-fight there would be very little to gain, not a title. Not an official one at least. Also, some street-corners may have been more suited to an unofficial heavyweight non title street fight than others, Wills might have a specific street-corner in mind. One with a working street-light for high visibility and with a low amount of wino traffic for example. - Wills fought at the top for longer. Yeah, like Ali and Lewis and Holmes he stayed near the top of the game for a while, and fought good opposition when past his best. - Wills would have been champion were he white. Would Johnson have given him a shot? Would he have won if he had gotten a shot? Who knows, my guess is maybe for the first question and maybe for the second question. Would Willard have given him a shot? I doubt it. Willard ducked Fulton, only defended his title twice and only fought Dempsey because he was so much smaller. Would he have beaten Dempsey when/if Dempsey became champion? Maybe. So...he could have been, the odds would have been better. - Wills is the greater HW, title credentials aside. Based on resume, longevity and consistency - yes. - WILLS IS THE GREATER HEAVYWEIGHT See above.
JimmyShimmy, there is no avoiding it. Wills defintley has the better resume. He beat 3 guys Sam Langford Joe Jeanette and Sam Mcvea who were clearly better than anyone dempsey beat outside of Jack Sharkey. The top white fighters Fred Fulton and Luis Firpo, Harry Wills had his way with them too. Not to mention He blasted out Kid Norfolk, another top man Dempsey should have fought, but didn't. Mcgrain, I think what hurts Wills is film. Dempsey looks great on film. How do we know Wills doesnt look great on film? I know there is film of him vs bartley madden 1924 out there( hadvnt seen it)....Wills might look phenominal. then where do we rate him? Wills very well may have knocked jack out early, we really dont know how good harry is. He sure did a number on dempseys crop though. Firpo didnt win one round, and fulton got utterly destroyed.
I disagree with you. I think Miske and Gibbons are nearly as good of wins as Jeannette and McVey. They both fought as LHW's for a lot of their career so I don't rate either as high at HW but there wasn't much seperating them at their best weights, and I probably rate both higher P4P. I would actually pretty confidintely pick Miske to beat McVey. Also, Dempsey defeated Firpo and Fulton in more exciting and devestating fashion.
