Even if you love Dempsey, it is time for a generation to accept -

Wills is so overated. What did he do when he got chance? He lost by ko to Sharkey and Uzcudum! He wasn't old, he had no excuses (but his supporters do) and there is almost or no film of him.

 

Naw..Miske was not even as good as Kid Norfolk, who Harry blasted away in 2. Gibbons beat a blind version of Norfolk, so that hardly gives a real idea of what a fight would have been like prime for prime, but i favor norfolk in that one. I think Jeanette was on a level above those two, jeanette gave jack johnson some tough goes and we all know johnson had 10x the talent of miske and gibbons. and Mcvea at 215lb would have been a very dangerous puncher for the smallish gibbons and miske. Miske might beat mcvea due to a styles matchup, but quite possibly he might not. Mcvea beat some good fighters, while miske did well against white heavyweights. miske never separated himself from the rest of the white crop, and none of the white crop of that time outside of dempsey could compete with the top black dynamite In my honest opinion.

well he caught Fulton pretty early but harry left permanant damage to fulton with the beating he gave him in 3 ...but Firpo floored Jack 3 times(yes 3, not 2) and damm near knocked him out....Wills beat firpo in one sided fashion knocking him down twice...I think harry did the better job

 

Wills was certainly past his best when he lost to Sharkey (not by KO, though he probably would have been KO'd had he not been DQ'd) and Uzcudun. Even Sharkey agrees with me. Or he would, if he wasn't dead now. He did agree with me but at that time I didn't subscribe to this belief because I didn't know who he was. So there was nothing for him to agree with. Point is, Sharkey said Wills was past his best when he beat him, and Wills record supports this.

 

Watch Wills on film vs Uzcuden....He still possesses a nice turtle shell defense, but even in the few seconds of clip you can see hes balding and his reflexes are shot..he has nothing left. Hell, Wills by that time was so washed up he wasnt capable of beating any top 10 fighters anymore.

 

Miske lost twice to Norfolk, indeed, though I've read the first loss was close and the second loss was during a period Miske was operating at less than 100% due to brights disease. Miske has an excellent resume, he was one of the top fighters of the era at HW or LHW, black or white. He lost to the very best and a couple of these losses came when he was not operating at his own best. I wouldn't argue that Miske and Gibbons should be rated higher at HW, just that they're not far worse than Jeannette and McVey head to head, if at all. In the same tier, in my opinion. Dempsey did better against Fulton, that's inarguable. KO'd him with a two or three punch combination, and not pretty early - 18 seconds. Fulton didn't land a punch. There is a valid argument that Wills beat Firpo more decisively than Dempsey, I suppose, but was he more exciting or more devastating? Charlie Weinert also won a shutout decision over Firpo, who else knocked him down 10 times or KO'd him anywhere near his prime?

 

Agreed.

Dempsey beat Sharkey, who was not only arguably better than anyone Wills beat, but had also just beaten the **** out of Wills himself. That alone makes the claim that Wills has the better resume very questionable, to say the least.

 

That's a very questionable statement.

For starters, guys like Miske, Gibbons, etc. were rated about as highly when Dempsey beat them as those guys were when Wills beat them. Willard was the top heavyweight in the world and undisputed champion when Dempsey toppled him - that has to be taken into consideration when comparing opposition.

Moreover, Wills didn't start to beat most of these guys until after they were considered jaded and possibly on the decline.

Many people thought Jeanette should've lost to Carpentier, who was still only a blown up middleweight at the time, before Wills ever had his first win over him.

Also, you appear to be acknowledging here that the best guys Wills beat aren't as good as the best guy Dempsey beat (Sharkey), which would mean between the two, Dempsey at least has the single best quality win.

At best, their resumes are comparable, but there's very little basis for saying Wills' is outright better.

But you could also name top men that Dempsey blasted out but which Wills didn't either - ie: Miske, Brennan, etc. Heck, Wills was even offered a fight with Tunney but turned it down.

 

Please do.

 

is it ok for me to say that dempsey is vastly overated now Maxmomer.

 

Certainly is. That's pretty much what this thread is for.

 

And alot of people overate the black heavyweights as though they would have been a definate certain for the crown.

 

Your topics of late have been excellent Mac.

 

MY reason is ,I THINK DEMPSEY KNOCKS WILLS SPARK OUT. SEVEN DAYS A WEEK .Little Sam Langford did it, and Dempsey would crucify the Brown Panther too imo.


How do you know Wills would have been Champion?
How do you know Wills would have beaten Dempsey?
How do you know Wills would have beaten Tunney ?[ A fight he was offered]
Which other Champ should have fought Wills?
You can rate Wills above Dempsey if you want ,but you cannot say he would have been Champ , only that he should have gotten an opportunity to become one.

What we can say is that Dempsey did not fight Wills.
Wills refused a fight with Tunney ,the winner to meet Dempsey.
Wills was beaten by Sharkey.
Wills against common opponents did not appear better than Dempsey.