Even if you love Dempsey, it is time for a generation to accept -

However you spin Miske, he lost twice to Norfolk. In his next fight after losing the second fight to Norfolk, he fought a draw with Gibbons. It is pretty arbitrary to try to drag his disease in as an excuse. Between the two losses to Norfolk, Miske fought a 10 round newspaper draw with Dempsey. Norfolk was certainly at least as good as Miske.

Interestingly, the supposedly totally over-the-hill Langford ko'd Norfolk between the two Miske bouts, and Wills later also knocked out Norfolk in two.

 

Chris' last post was excellent. My only difference is slight over Firpo ... he was wild but in a Fullmer/Bonavena type of way. He had some decent wins other than the Dempsey fight ... Dempsey basically fought him the dumbest way possible and while won in spectacular fashion he easily could have lost that fight ... legends also require some luck ... Ali had a ton and Dempsey had his share as proven in the Firpo fight ...

We will never know who wins Dempsey/Wills for sure since Dempsey refused to fight him. While Wills was denied a title shot, Dempsey is forever tarnished to me. He is a legend but not a proven commodity against the best of his time ... While I have been tough on Marciano, I will say that he ducked no one!

 

Miske lost to Norfolk, went on a string of draws (two of which to fighters he had beaten more often than not in the past) then got KO'd by Dempsey. Everyone's quick to not give Dempsey any credit for his win over Miske during that period.

 

Miske was a 10-1 underdog.

10-1!!! That's huge. Hopkins, who no one gave a chance against Pavlik, was 4-1 with him. Pacquiao, who was given little chance was 3-1 against De La Hoya. They were favorites compared to how much the underdog Miske was, despite the fact that Miske pretty much went even with him a few years earlier. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

I mistyped up there, saying Wills knocked out Miske. I meant to say Wills knocked out Norfolk.

Yes, Miske fought draws in 1919 with Gibbons, Brennan, and Levinsky after losing to Norfolk. There is then a 14 month gap leading to the fight with Dempsey with Miske's only effort a fight with nonentity Jack Moran. Dempsey dwelled on Miske being sick with Bright's Disease when he fought him in his autobiography.

 

It’s important to bring up because many consider the 1920’s as a ‘weak’ heavyweight era. Many consider Bowe to still have a solid resume despite ducking Lewis.

That’s no straw man argument, that’s somebody whose is in tune with ones career flow and is telling you what’s cooking. Langford was beginning to simmer when Wills came along. That is a simple fact.

This is not ammo for you to tell me in retort that ‘Miske was ill’ or ‘Firpo sent him flying’, but for you to digest and re-evaluate.

Correct, Sharkey was an excellent fighter and Dempsey beat him. Better still, many believe this was Sharkey’s best performance, and he lost.

Gibbons was quality and Dempsey shut him out. This is where Dempsey’s own spectacular nature hampered the significance of this win.

6 rounds is not a joke when Miske was said to do well for surviving, and the win over him in 1920 was not a farce but a genuine shoot-out.

Really how ill was he, at that point, ‘cause he looks ripped and was said to be ‘throwing dynamite’.

Carpentier was serving between 1914-1919, yes.

And point is that Dempsey beat Fulton more convincingly than Wills.

Dempsey does not rely on his victories over Miske, the same cannot be said of Wills relationship with Langford.

Firpo is not a joke he had a nice awkward style that would be knocking over many of the big dudes today.

Without Ali, Frazier still has a nice resume and would have smoked some more to deepen his reign before Foreman came, or hell, maybe he could have got to Foreman early enough to see it through.

Without Langford, Wills resume just suffers big time as he had nowhere to go.

Wills got in the mix with the black dynamites a little later on and automatically gets credit for fighting better men than Dempsey did, I don’t buy it.

I beg to differ that every other good heavyweight would have got the better of Willard on that day – the man was still fighting back in the third after taking everything and Dempsey was winded.

With Wills more hold n’ slug style he would have had a much rougher ride with the resilient Willard.

Miske, Willard, Brennan, Gibbons, and Sharkey shape up nicely to Wills best. Resume is also about performance and Dempsey’s were generally better.

 

Oh yeah, and Langford was basically out of shape during his stint with Wills.

As he neared his thirties he often came in around 200lbs and sported an unnatural round figure.

And to think those of you who always slated Willards weight against Dempsey- he'd look slim compared to Langford back then.

 

Some thoughts on these three comments -

Dempsey was also past his best when he beat Sharkey, it was close on the cards and not the judges or the ref thought low-blows made any physical difference in the KO. Sharkey was also fouling in the fight. He just lost his **** and ate a bitchin left hook as a result.

Dempsey did shut out Gibbons, or at least won probably 12 out of 15 of the rounds. And also coming off of a two year vacation.

I have an article quoting Jeff Clarke, who served as a sparring partner for Firpo, in which he states that Firpo was "So bad he's good." He says that Firpo was basically so awkward and unpredictable that he was effective. I just thought that was an interesting statement.

 

Gibbons won the 6th and 11th on film. He definitely shows sparks of success, but Dempsey is dominant.

Sounds like me and Jeff Clarke thought alike. Firpo was very hard to measure and he was sneaky.

 

Welcome back Jimmy Shimmy.

 

I think a good case can me made that Wills was very green and inexperienced when he faced these guys pre 1916, and once wills developed more experienced and matured, he dominated them easily. But his wins over a 31 year old sam langford, 31 year old sam mcvea, and joe jeanette in 1913 are all world class wins

 

I am not very impressed by Luis Angel Firpo. He appears to me like a crude version of Rex Layne, which is not saying much. Firpo defintley packed power in his right hand though.

 

Thanks, Mendoza. I never went away.

 

Thanks, Mendoza. I never went away.