Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

Liston's 5 th and 6th fights were against Michigan heavyweight Champ 18-1-2 Johnny Summerlin who would be ranked number 5 the next year.
Marciano's were against a middle weight and a guy having his first fight! Marciano didn't stay around long enough if he had continued fighting to Sonny's advanced age he might well have been stopped!

 

Yes your talking selected stages of career against stages of career rather than overall legacy.

I like Summerlin a lot. I’ve seen him fight guys on YouTube and he was a tough bad ass who was game and could hold his own. Sonny did well so early on to earn a split decision with that kind of fighter. Perhaps they both improved afterwards. Perhaps only one of them improved afterwards. Either way I don’t see what that has to do with the point you responded to.

I was replying to a guy who was raving about Sonnys knockout streak over contenders from 1959. Well Summerlin was not knocked out, nor was he a contender, and this was before that period anyway. What I had said about this prime period 1959-1962 was that those opponents bore no relation to the best guys Rocky beat at championship level. Because they didn’t. Bert Whithurst, Westphal, king, besmanoff don’t bare relation. The actual best wins were Harris, Foley, Patterson and Machen. They are great wins. The tops. But they are not worthy to wins over Louis, Walcott, Layne, Charles, Moore, lastarza who were al #1 rated or world champions.

 

Folley Machen Patterson could very well have beaten the Louis that Marciano fought and Id bet money they would all beat Layne and Lastarza,we know what Patterson did to Moore a year after the Marciano fight. Moore only managed a split dec over Besmanoff in one of their fights and he drew with King in one of theirs.

 

So Patterson isn't worthy comparative to guys like Moore and Lastarza? Er when was Moore heavyweight champ? Was Joe Louis the champ when Marciano beat him?

That's some twisted logic.

 

Like Albert Westphal he did well against that forth tier opponent.

 

Yes Patterson is absolutely comparable. But it’s one guy.

Perhaps Machen and Foley could feasibly be equal to Lastarza and Layne. Not Charles. Not Walcott. Not Moore. I don’t see Harris beat any of The guys Marciano fought as champion either.

I don’t think Moore has to be a heavyweight champion to be great at heavyweight either. Moore was reigning light heavyweight champion and he had beat undisputed Middleweight champion, undisputed lightheavy champion, as well as #1 and #2 heavyweight contenders within 18 months or so.

 

Well yes you made a good case about Folley Patterson and Machen. Certainly not unreasonable. on the subject of Moore however he was the favourite to beat Patterson because his resume at heavyweight eclipsed Floyd at that time. In fact you point to later Moore wins over Besmanoff and King that came after Marciano pounded him without mentioning that in one round Moore flattened the guy who beat a young Sonny or that as an older guy he beat Whithurst better than Sonny did.

 

Obviously Moore didn't beat the light-heavy champion during that period because he was the light-heavy champion. He did beat the #1 heavyweight contender, but not the #2 contender.

 

Moore beat Baker who was #2 and Nino was #1. He knocked out Harold Johnson who beat Charles and was later an undisputed lightheavy champion. He beat Maxim who had wins over Patterson and Walcott. Moore was doing a fine job of cleaning out the house until he ran into Rocky.

 

He did well against Valdes
Folley,Machen,Valdes,Willliams,Harris too, or don't they count?

Yes Liston beat up 24-8-3 Westphal in his 35th fight.
Who was Marciano;s35th opponent?Harold Mitchell 4-14-3 he hadn't won any of his last 11 fights!

In his last fight with Whitehurst Liston knocked him clean out of the ring,he was in the process of trying to get back in when the final bell rang.
The score cards were 50-37,50-40 , 48-39.
That's a pretty convincing win I would say.

 

I don't believe Moore was a great heavyweight.

 

Really? Of course he has to be. It's not like Charles at 175, Moore fought for the title and copped some beatings. There's no shame in that, he was overwhelmingly great at 175 but not even close at Heavy tho he was certainly respectable and a bit more.

You might be the first guy i have ever seen call Moore great at heavyweight. Beating middleweights and light heavyweights ain't making him great at heavy and nor is beating a couple of contenders.

 

Does anyone?

 

Maybe Choklab does.

 

Oh come on, I’m the only guy who thinks Moore was a top heavyweight? there was a thread on here one time where folks voted on Moore being a top 50 heavyweight based on this run. Moore beat some fine heavyweights. We all know this. Baker and Valdes fit into any top ten in any era. Moore legitimately climbed those ranks.