Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

Liston fought on with a broken jaw against Marshall, so this idea that he'd quit against Marciano is laughable.
When he did quit vs Ali, it was cause he ruptured a tendon in his shoulder and was unable to carry on fighting. And in the second fight he took a dive.
Liston obliterates Marciano with ease, it's not even close. As Reinhard said, Foreman would do the same to Marciano.

 

Here’s an old thread pivoting on Rocky’s assessment of Liston following the DeJohn fight in Feb59 - quotes courtesy of @McGrain. Excellent info and very interesting.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/rocky-marciano-on-sonny-liston.94277/

 

I appreciate your not asking that I track the individual comments down across threads, since that's a research project in itself.

In general, it's my impression that Liston is discussed as if the rest of his body is proportional to his reach. Based upon a complimentary comment by Foreman about sparring, Liston is credited with being as strong as Big George (a man who demonstrated his strength on film in both careers.) Liston is presented as a guy who would be more dangerous to superheavyweight punchers like Lewis than vice versa. He's sometimes compared to Rahman physically as-is, which is a bit of an overreach since Rahman was at least 20 pounds of muscle heavier. About the same difference between Patterson and Liston himself in their second meeting. Speaking of which, even against 90s/2000s guys much heavier than Liston, Liston's physique is described in more glowing terms than it merits.

I don't think Liston was Big George with the stamina and skill of Joe Louis. Yes, he hit hard, he had good stamina, he was skilled, and he beat the best of his own era. But he wasn't a terrifying monster-man by later standards.

Just my impression.

 

He quit v Ali because he couldn`t hit him.

 

Actually, it was because of an injured shoulder.
But you are right, Liston couldn't hit Ali much. But that's cause the stylistic matchup favored Ali, and cause Liston was old and unprepared.

 

I don't think the idea people have of Liston is Foreman with stamina+Louis skill. I think it's that he had surprisingly good stamina for a big puncher and operated behind a sledgehammer jab. We literally haven't seen anything like that in decades and even big guys like Lewis and Wladmir have to be careful to pace themselves and have gassed in other fights.

The closest guys to Liston in size and skill would be Rahman, Ike, Mercer, etc and you can definitely argue Liston has them beat in terms of power, skill, accuracy, finishing ability, a wider variety of punches, etc even if he doesn't have as much pure muscle as them. A prime Liston would be a problem if he fought in any era and was carefully managed without the contenders being allowed to duck him or the champion freezing him out.

As for the thread, Liston TKO's Marciano in 5.

 

Liston was significantly smaller than Rahman or Ibeabuchi. To the tune of an inch and at least 20 pounds. Mercer was a little chubby, and the same height, but still 15+ pounds heavier than Liston.

Liston just wasn't the same size as the 90s/2000s heavies -- even the short ones. Now, could he have bulked up with 90s chemicals and training methods? Sure. He was probably naturally in the same ballpark as the shorter 90s guys would be without assistance. But Liston wasn't that size as-is.

 

Ha,ha,ha,ha,,,,

 

"Size" isnt always black and white. Both Rahman and Ike could lose some belly and chest fat, it's not like they were Greek Gods. Ike was also clearly roiding up.

 

Liston also had extra fat, though.

I agree that steroids were common in the 90s. But steroid muscle is still real muscle. It's not like Ike's muscles were inflated with silicone or anything.

 

The only interesting thing about this match is the anatomical differences and the Rocks style drawing fighters out of there center of balance

Liston- the longest reach
Marciano- the shortest reach

Marciano's style was to set back over his back leg and lean slightly back and stay low drawing his opponent forward and into his power

 

The point wasn't that roid muscle isn't real. It was a callback to earlier threads we've had discussing if people caught with them should even count for h2h discussions. I mean, I don't think a lot of people use Lance Armstrong for h2h biking discussions.

 

Ahhh, I see.

I think if you set up a fantasy fight between a steroid and non-steroid user, you'd have to allow steroids. Just because we have no evidence of what the steroid user would perform like otherwise.

 

Rahman didn`t have a jab like Liston`s or his vicious hook.

 

Or just banish them from discussions for cheating? I mean getting caught once because of a misunderstanding, took medicine the doctor recommended because you didn't know it was banned (Toney), tainted food, etc, that can be forgiven with an asterisk* permanently on your name. But after 2-3+ instances where you are either caught or it's pretty damn obvious you're still doping, what makes you any different from a guy who rigged a card game at a casino or a guy who paid off the refs to win a basketball game?

At that point I really could care less what they look like without extra assistance.