Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

I think Sonny was done with being a champ by that point. He was just really fed up with it. And it is a shame because I think he had enough in him to do really well and answer questions that Patterson answered about himself after his own championship days. Sonny was denied this and had lost the appetite by then. I don’t even think he was in that good shape as a defending champion. Winning the title was the box he had ticked. After that he had outgrown the sport. He was tired of it.

 

That is not correct and you know it. Nothing I have said was a lie. Your quibbling over seek &sought or took and take for goodness sake. The fights didn’t happen and it is unfortunate the fights did not happen. And that is true. Not enough of the kinds of examples I like to see pre championship because Sonny was so good. Mystery around the championship. Then not enough competition. And that’s an opinion on the events.

 

You are overreacting. I know about the things I comment on and I am happy to back anything up. As I have done here. If you disagree about my opinion that’s okay. But it’s not lying. So don’t say that it is. I am entitled to my opinions and there is nothing misleading in that at all. I have been caught out on nothing other than having an opinion on history. I am not the one bumping these threads. And you know it.

 

I am not so sure about that. According to @klompton2 Liston was offered fights against elite guys Frazier beat:

 

That’s right. This is an opinion. It cannot be a lie. As you say it is a claim. Coming through harder fights, competitive matchmaking, which we did not see after his championship days, in my opinion, would have shown me more. It took till Ali was past prime to show us what he had deep down when he was tested didn’t we?

without stepping into the ring with championship class fighters like Ellis, Terrell, etc There isn’t evidence Sonny was, any longer, better at that level than he had shown to be in Maine and Miami. There is no evidence, in my opinion, he had the appetite for being a champion once he beat Patterson.

Sonny looks good against Clark and scrap iron Johnson. But we never got to see him compete above that level again.

 

Oh so that’s how it is? I respond and you bring the so called straw man tactic out, whatever that means. Let’s just stick to boxing here. It took till Ali was past prime to see him tested because there was not the guys around to test him before. Is it so wrong to suggest, as an opinion, that it is unfortunate Sonny missed out on being tested when he was past prime so that we could reevaluate Sonny being tested like he was in Miami against Ali?

Sonny had just 33 fights in almost 10 years by the time he was able to contest for a title. His career had been stalled by a prison sentence and the Ingo trilogy. Within two years as a champion he was a contender again. Yet we did not see him contest with enough good fighters after that point.

 

Not at all. The same could apply to Marciano if he had a cake walk at championship level until losing the title. Why does it have to be tearing somebody down? It would have been nice to see what Sonny had after that point. To see what was in the tank against somebody who could test him other than Ali at world level. That’s all. That’s an opinion. Not a tear down. Or a lie.
And on the subject of Sonny turning down a title fight with Ellis. What is your opinion on this? Is there evidence?

 

You keep proving his point over and over. He just told you h2h discussions are about prime vs prime versions of fighters but for multiple pages you insist on talking about past prime Listons career and using that to question his ability.

 

Sonny Liston was still a championship level fighter. For him to seek competitive fights after his championship days it would be at championship level. Like the Ellis offer he presumably turned down. Henry Clark was a good fighter. But outside of championship class. You are deciding I am lying because I did not include him. But It was not a competitive fight and not who I had in mind. You brought up Martin. I did not.

For comparison, As an ex champion Patterson was facing Machen, Chuvalo Henry cooper and others.

I was not aware of that interpretation. Within a debate you can’t suggest something off topic?

uncalled for.