Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

Spinks would have toyed with Jefferies.

 

Against fighters smaller and less powerful than Liston, Patterson would probably have beaten all Marciano`s title opposition, he was faster than any fighter Marciano fought and more skilled than nearly all of them.

 

Very good. I like it.

You’ve had to keep that one in your back pocket for quite some time - alas the moment has passed all too quickly, now we’re on page 50.

Let’s throw Mayweather and his “perfect” record into the discussion for sh*ts and giggles.

 

If the punch lands as perfectly, like it did on Walcott, it’s good enough to knock anyone spark out. The question is would he be good enough to get into position and set it up like that against Sonny.

It’s not a question of saying “even if it landed right on his chin, just like that, it wouldn’t take him out”. That’s crazy. Because it takes anyone out if it lands just like that.

It’s getting the chance to land it. Either you think he could or you think he couldn’t.

It’s not like Rocky, or anyone, could be guaranteed to land the perfect punch each and every time against each and every opponent.

 

That punch wouldn`t have knocked Ali out or Fury or Mike Tyson as Ruddock landed harder shots on Mike, Holmes would have taken that shot too, McCall could have taken the shot too.

 

Nobody takes that impact.
Not in the way it landed Mark.

At the right distance Rocky beat a longer armed fighter to the draw finding full extension and follow through at the point of impact just as Walcott was recoiling into throwing his own right hand.

Walcotts jaw was having a head on collision. Watch his head spin. Walcott turning into it with all his weight behind him.

The double impact was harder than the punch itself.

 

I don`t think Marciano was big enough to knock out super heavies despite the clumsy out of shape Willard being stopped by Dempsey and the inept Buddy Baer being stopped by Louis and Carnera was a fraud.

 

Marciano won the title wearing 6oz gloves though. Maybe that made a difference?

 

I'm not that cruel to people i like, well not often

I'll use Rahman a bit below as he was the topic of your other thread about Liston.

There are some people, it is fair to say, that perform above their weight. For me Liston and Foreman are undoubtedly two of them. Some people have immense natural strength and force that doesn't have to be nurtured. There's also the factor of just how effectively and dramatically strength training/muscle building actually translates to the ring.

Now Rahman, lets say, is going to beat Liston on virtually all of the common lifts, bench press etc but this doesn't mean he is going to be stronger in the ring and nor does it mean it's going to have that much impact on a match. Rahman despite his size and immense weight lifting strength is never ever talked about in the hardest puncher threads. Liston however is.

We concluded in here ages ago that at a certain size upward weight advantages start to hit the point of diminishing returns. Admittedly that point may have gone up in recent years but it's still a valid point. Recently we concluded in here that Shavers is strongly considered the hardest punching heavyweight in history. At his best Shavers was often 205-210 pounds. We know that Shavers has immense power and certainly more than enough to knock out virtually anyone given he can land some of his best.

Liston at his peak had a handful of pounds on Shavers. We know Liston has the power to knock guys spark out. Wilder pole axed the 240+ pound Ortiz and almost decapitated Fury at a weight of 214 3/4 and 212 1/2. Liston was 213 and 215 1/2 for Patterson. We know Liston isn't too light or small to raise hell power wise on these big guys.

A 10 year past his prime 42yo Trevor Berbick took a young Hasim Rahman the full distance despite all his muscles and supposed strength. A 40+yo Jesse Ferguson took Rahman the distance. Size and supposed strength is just one facet. A 208 1/2 pound Marion Wilson who had 11 wins vs 31 losses took Hasim the distance.

Rahman just isn't that good. His biggest claim to fame is knocking out a poorly trained non acclimatized Lewis who came back and absolutely dominated him.

I'd take a guy like Liston all day long against a guy like Rahman. The skill difference is huge and Liston has shown he can fight brilliantly off the front or back foot and he utilizes various defensive techniques extremely efficiently. Rahman isn't going to overpower him unless they go and lay down on the bench press.

Liston is a far more dangerous and effective in the ring heavyweight than a big heavyweight like Rahman. He may not be a terrifying man monster by today's standards but i reckon he'd bowl over plenty of super heavyweights by the same token.

There's a big gap functionally IMO between say, 185 pounds and 205-215 while the functional gap to 20-30 pounds heavier than that is greatly diminished comparatively.

 

As an aside, the Ring "Best I Faced" from Wepner does seem to confirm that, as far as Wepner was concerned, old Sonny was at least as strong and physical as young Foreman.

Now, Foreman might have been stronger and rougher by '74. But Wepner's account is pretty consistent with Foreman's, and the timelines fit. Plus, Wepner did state that he relied on a very physical style himself, so he'd have reason to know.

 

Well what's more impressive to me than Wepners comments about Listons strength and punching power in regards to SHW vs threads is how Liston put on a clinic landing his jab seemingly at will on a much taller opponent. Granted, Wepner isn't 30% the boxer guys like Lewis or Wladmir we're, but it's hard to imagine those two having a walk in the park when it comes to the battle of jabs.

Liston also tended to step in and use his jab heavier on the front foot while many tall opponents today tend to paw with it or use it as a defensive keep away weapon. Unless a super heavy is brave, hard hitting, and has a solid chin, they're going to have a hard time beating Liston to the punch on the front foot. It's basic physics. Trying to outjab Liston on the back foot in a defensive fashion is the equivalent of trying to stop a battering ram with a fencing sword.

 

Not stopping Marion Wilson should not count against Rahman. NOBODY EVER stopped Marion Wilson. Wilson took most of his fights on short notice, away from home and against good fighters but he was never stopped by anybody. Wilson turned pro at age 32, fought 57 times until he was 49, fighting people like Ibeabuchi, Briggs, Page, Golotta x 2, Sellers, Maskaev, Tony Thompson, McCall, Larry Donald, Mercer, Peters, etc. and was never stopped.

 

Oh he was durable for sure. He was knocked down a few times tho and loved a good hug. The reason i bring him up as well is he was smaller than Liston yet going the distance against all these big modern heavyweights.