Expert Opinions on Prime Liston VS Ali

One that i 100% agree with.

 

The whole being ducked thing is a myth. He wasn't established as top contender until after Floyd had lost the title to Ingo, then rematch clauses held the title occupied for two years. After that Liston got his shot. And he put in his best two performances. He won more convincingly than he'd done against any opponent even close to the top 5. So why think he was past his prime?

 

As for cleaning out the ranking, Liston did a pretty good job going by Ring rankings. If we look at the year before Liston really started to climb the rankings, 1957, he beat six out of the top 10 plus the champion at some point. That was the closes he came to cleaning out a top 10.

The same look for Tyson in 1986 gives seven plus the champion.

Ali at some point beat everyone else in the rankings plus the champion for both 1963 and 1973.

Louis, champion, beat seven on the top 10 of 1939 at some point, including the whole top 5

 

If the top 2 guys Ingo & Floyd wont fight you, its pretty hard to add to your resume! Liston was top ten ranked for 4 years before he got his title shot.
59=9
60=3
61=1
62=1
Floyd fought Tom McNeeley in 61, he wasn't ranked, Liston was number 1.
It's an established fact that D'Amato kept Patterson away from Liston ,and that it was the main cause of their split.
Liston walked into D'Amato's office and confronted him with the words, "is you or is you ain't you giving me a shot at the title"

To deny Liston was ducked is patent nonsense!

 

Ali by UD.

 

Ingo was the rightful challenger in 1959. On that I think we are agreed.

The contractual stipulations then made them fight each other through 1960 and 1961. You might think it wrong that they weren't stripped of the title for honoring those clauses, like WBA stripped Ali for rematching Liston, but it's hard to see any premeditation on either Floyd's or Ingo's part in order to deny Liston his shot. They were honoring their contracts. Like Liston would and then Ali.

After that trilogy Floyd then takes on a softie to see out the year. I can see why he did that after three fights with his up until then most difficult adversary, but I can also see why you'd think he should give Liston his shot as soon as possible.

So then, yes, you can say that Liston was ducked for 10 months.

 

Liston beat
DeJohn
Folley
Machen
Summerlin
Williams
Harris
Valdes

Before getting his shot ,what more did he need to do to join the queue with the likes of Harris,Rademacher,McNeeley,London, Jackson?

I can say he in the top ten for 4 years number, 1 for 2 of them ,and number 3 for another ,yet he didn't get his shot.

 

But what do you disagree with of what I said?

Ingo received his shot by destroying Machen in an eliminator in 1958. Liston had just started to feature in the rankings by that stage, so I don't think a reasonable argument can be made that he deserved the shot ahead of Ingo.

Then they had their trilogy from mid 1959 to early 1961. You could argue that they should be stripped like Ali was later by the WBA for honoring his rematch clause against Liston, but it's hard to argue anything but that the fighters themselves just honored their contracts. Like Liston did for Floyd and Ali for Liston. That they honored their contracts doesn't equate to ducking to me, even though I personally don't agree with that kind of rematch practice.

Then, yes, I think it is a valid point that Liston should have received the shot instead of McNeely in late 1961. So, yes, that can be labelled a duck even though I can understand that Floyd wanted to see out the year with a gimme. But it's perfectly reasonable to say that Floyd should have given Sonny that shot. That means Liston was actively ducked for 10 months.

What do you disagree with of the above?

 

Taking my dogs out now before my Saturday lunchtime drink.

 

If Floyd would have beaten Ingo, I think Liston still would have to wait until 1961.

Floyd would not have taken on another top challenger during 1959, and in early 1960 Liston had not yet received top contender status. So likely Machen or Folley would have gotten the shot. If Floyd won that one, Liston would be the clear nr 1 going into 1961. I think he would have gotten his shot sometime that year.

If Floyd lost, though, there would be the same rematch thing, and Liston might well have had to wait longer for his shot.

 

Prime Liston would have put Ali in the ER

 

Agree totally mcvey!

 

Sonny may have been a shade past it but still formidable. I think Liston was overconfident and out of shape more than anything else. His weight was a little higher than usual if I remember correctly. He may have expected an early knockout.