Ezzard Charles vs Mike Tyson. "Primes"

Thank you... he basically bases this opinion entirely on the Marciano vs Charles I fight. And he wrongly describes or understand Charles gameplan in that fight as well. He wasn't simply trying to brawl with him. Mendoza is a good posters, but a lot of the times he has the habit of forming opinions, and then trying to find evidence to support that. Rather than finding evidence to form an opinion based on that, or having an ever changing/adapting opinion because of all the new information you learn.

 

Of course he did, especially as he got older and his legs left him ...

 

I don't know. Elmer Ray was bigger than Tyson and just as feared in his day, he was described as a pressuing high volume puncher. Maybe he was slow? We don't know too much about him. Charles gave him his first knock out loss since he peaked and ended his career as a contender.

Young in his career or not, Tillis is the only comparable fighter Tyson fought and he gave him some serious trouble while not being that great of a fighter. I'm not ruling Charles out here. If anything its Mike's hand speed that would have me worried.

 

Ray usually weighed around 190-200 pounds. Charles scored a significant stoppage over Joe Baksi, but Baksi was more the George Chuvalo type. Charles did have problems dealing with Valdes's size though Valdes stylistically did not resemble Tyson much.

I don't know if Tillis is any more comparable to Charles than any of Tyson's other opponents.

 

I dont buy all this Tyson could be the best , even at a young age he wasnt , but Charles gets KTFO.

 

-He was also 6'2". And Charles fought him when he was still campaigning as a light heavy at 174-175, giving up roughly 20+ lbs in each meeting to a pressuing knockout puncher.

-Valdez was a long armed guy that supposively controlled the distance and smothered Charles on the inside from what's claimed. Considering his trouble against Joe Louis' jab, I wouldn't be surprised.

-Tillis is a blown up cruiser boxer/puncher with decent hand speed and some ring smarts. About as close as your going to get save Evander.

 

Tyson fought in the under 200lb heavyweight division all through his amateur career, he lost to Henry Tillman in the box-offs, he gained 15 lbs of muscle for his pro debut.

They may have had Peds back in the day but boxing was the last to conform to the new methods and in the 50's heavyweights trained down to make weight like the other divisions. Joe Louis came into an exhibition at 230 and looked good but trained down that weight for his next fight to feel good

Rooney and Steve Lott would deny being part of an illegal action, why would they admit it.

2 fighters who are candidates for steroid use are Tyson by his in and out of the ring RAGE, assaults and ear-biting and Ike Ibeabuchi

If Charles knew the book on Tyson, his battle plan would differ. We are talking about an experienced fighter who in his prime already had more fights than Tyson had in his career

I am not convinced that Charles would beat him or overcome that early onslaught, (I think Walcott would beat Tyson, I would bet on it) but I do think Charles with knowledge of the fact that Tyson only once had a stoppage after 8rds would use a different strategy and save the assault for latter rds like Buster did.

I do not think much of Buster Douglas, and I have seen many of his fights but he did rise to the occasion that night but then again so did Evander in 2 fights, Danny Williams and McBride. Tyson was a force to be reckoned with but I can not discount the fact that he folded his tent when he was taken deep.

I will not undermine the chances of the Great Ezzard Charles

 

...except Holyfield (who looked a lot like Ezzard Charles btw)

 

I don't really understand why the thread title says "primes", Charles wasn't really in his primes when he fought at hw was he?

Anyway, it's tempting to say that no blown up LHW beats prime Tyson. Charles was really special though, so skilled and all the heart in the world. I see him as a top-10 ATG. With modern-day training techniques at his disposal, i say Charles can pull it off.

 

Correction, 91kg/200.2 pounds was the HW division for amateurs. And you can train to keep the weight in order to give your best chance to compete for the medal. He was 214 for his pro debut. And still young and arguably growing.
Could it have been enhanced by steroids? of course. Seeing that this was a new era of Super-HWs, could tempt you. And with D'Amato, Jacobs, and Cayton invested money into Tyson all those years, it could be tempting.

I think he had 8 months or so to put the weight on from the amateurs. He wasn't hard as a rock either like he was post-prison when he took up heavy-lifting. He had smooth muscle back then. Always thought that was better.


Rage is a give away?
"roid rage" is largely a myth. If it was all fact you would have bodybuilders going around killing people all the time. Same with athletes. Arnold was juiced up to the max but was the coolest guy.

I had rage problems from 6 years old up until I was in my early 20's. And I know many others that have rage attacks.

Tyson had rage and high energy as a young kid. This is recorded. He was a crazy MF-er.

You can't base of how you feel as a person like it is the same with everybody else. Some have naturally higher testosterone levels and other chemical/hormone levels. "Naturally High Testosterone" level people tend to be more aggressive, wilder, and live crazy. That's what the studies say. And if you have it, you know it.


I've seen ear-biting in real fights. It just means he let his emotions get the better of him, got frustrated, and didn't know any other way to respond other than taking it back to the streets. He was a **** fighter at that point. However, there was speculation he may have been on something post-prison, especially cheque drops. Now if that was just specualtion or what...don't know. Anything is possible, especially when a man is desperate for an edge when he loses it.

Assaults: He started doing that as a pre-teen. Was he on steroids then?
Were all his "friends" on the same PEDs that he was because they were committing assaults as well.

How about in general: People in every day life that commit assaults, ****, etc...all on Steroids?

Soldiers on steroids?

Were the Mongolians on Steroids when the raided countries, raped, murdered, etc?


How come Tyson didn't display this same rage he displayed on Holyfield back in the day when he was with Rooney?
How come he didn't ear bite?


Tyson actually did train down his weight. It's also why they kept him so active beside keeping him out of trouble because he was a wild kid.
As a pro, He would go up 15+ pounds when not training. He was a natural fat person.
He was obese as a kid and then they trained him to get fit. And as he trained, the muscle started to pile on. But you still are going to look at the division you are fighting in.

Holyfield, Wlad...those two are guys that increase their weight specifically when going into camp and then lose it when not fighting.



I'm not discounting the possibility of PEDs, not at all...especially given the circumstances...but some of your agreements lack.


Tyson as an amateur was bigger than Charles as a Pro.

It's not impossible to be 5'11, 210+
We saw that with Sam McVey

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I wonder if McVey's career would have been different had he had the training under D'Amato like Tyson had.

And if he did do Steroids back then, which is quite possible because Tyson said D'Amato mentioned him wishing he was more on the level of Ken Norton for physique, D"Amato and the rest of the team would be responsible for giving them to him since they were all around and they supplied what Tyson took. I think that is possible.

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I don't remember him looking obese either when he did it.

Charles was still a LH who was naturally smaller than Tyson. In fact, Charles started lower than LH.
Tyson beat many opponents that had more experience than him. He had the luxury of having sparred season pros as a teen and had someone like D'Amato teach him. More Pro fights can also mean more wear and tear.

I don't think Walcott beats Tyson either. A past prime Joe Louis knocked him out. I think Tyson could as well.

Douglas: That's the fight you are going to use?
A 6'3+, 230 pound opponent to compare with Charles?
An unfit version of Tyson?
He was getting lit-up by non other than Trevor Berbick in sparring and had to use a crash diet to make weight. We all saw what happened when Tyson met Berbick for the title when properly trained.
Even Berbick had no idea what was going on with Tyson because he looked like crap. Unmotivated and unfit to fight.

amphetamines were also used back in the day which Tyson could have also used if need be to lose weight and cut-up. I think that is possible as well.

Evander: Post-Prison Tyson? Yeah, because we all know that 3+ years in prison would be great for a person like Tysonatsch
He was crap at that point.

He was finished by the time he got to Williams, which was also down to the knee injury, and especially McBride.


Many believe Walcott "folded his tent" against Marciano in the rematch. Just in it for the pay-day.



I think Tyson could do the same
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmojnJNIyA8[/ame]

 

Charles does not belong in the ring with Tyson .. this takes nothing away from Charles who was a great light heavyweight and a very good cruiser ... we are talking about the explosive, lightning speed and tremendous power of Tyson here ... he will land hard and early and end it .. Charles has nothing to keep him off with ... I can see Charles doing well in a match up with a Foreman or maybe for a time with a Liston but Tyson is a terrible match up for him ...

 

Emler Ray just as feared as Tyson? Not a chance. For a big puncher, Ray hardly Ko'd any top ten guys. Charles took an average heavyweight punch at best. He was Ko'd by one shot from Walcott, and floored 30 times in his career.

The debate in this thread should not be who wins, rather how Tyson wins.

 

I don't think Charles was any better than Michael Spinks at light heavy and matches up with Tyson just as poorly .. there were many much bigger men Ezzard would be a big challange for ... jus not Mike ..

I'm waiting for SQ to use the immortal Rex Layne in the debate ... :hey

 

I'm beginning to think Tyson is the most under rated fighter on this board.

Elmer Ray is bigger than Tyson? Elmer Ray was JUST AS FEARED AS Tyson?