Ezzard Charles vs. Sonny Liston

Not sure I buy that Charles was tougher than Patterson. He was actually dropped more times than Patterson. But, that being said, I could see this fight going a number of ways. Early in his career Liston was scheduled to fight Harold Johnson in Pittsburgh. Johnson injured his shoulder and Marty Marshall was subbed. If Liston had fought Johnson instead I would feel more comfortable making a pick based on that outcome. I could see Liston bombing Johnson out or I could see Johnson tying Liston in knots. Liston should bomb him out but if he couldnt it would give a better idea of how Charles might have done against him.

 

Better at what?

yes Sonny is stronger and bigger. But what does Liston do BETTER than Walcott?

It’s not like Charles was the only great fighter Walcott beat. Jersey Joe knocked out the great Harold Johnson in a couple of rounds. He decked Joe Louis and some thought he deserved to beat him. He also Beat Elmer Ray, hatchet man Shepherd, Joe Baksi, Tommy Gomez, Joey maxim, Jimmy Bivins, Lee Q Murray and Lee Oma.

 

you won't find a bigger charles fan than me. are those fights really relevant to liston? so much bigger and legit world class, even if quite a lot worse technically, i have to pick the big world class guy here.

i just can't see any point in charles' career where he would have been favored over liston.

 

I get what you are saying, and you are correct in stating Sonny should be favoured by the vast majority on here. The factors as they stand today surely would favour Liston.

It must be stressed, however, that at the time these fighters fought, Liston in the 1950-1960s Ezzard in the 40s & 50s, we are talking pre chemically enhanced times whereby the size issue at World level was barely considered an asset.

Sonny really was a rare beast of those times. An exception to the then rule. A Big explosive guy like Max Baer before him. But at that time, the times he was around, Sonny was regarded like Max Baer. A potentially all time great fighter who should have went further that somehow reached part of their limit.

The fighters like Charles and Walcott were not just in vogue, they were seen as more advanced than the powerhouse types like Baer and Liston.

Fight fans around then and the boxing people really didn’t have a thing for the Superheavyweight concept. How could they? Until 1960, So many top Lightheavyweights scored big wins over the elite heavyweights.

Elite heavyweights rarely got bigger than 200lb. So I would guess boxing folks who lived through the 1940s to 1960 and were involved likely favour the Charles type.

They did not know what we know now. They had not yet seen what sports science could achieve with bigger athletes.

 

i don't think that either was ever enhanced.

liston was a natural hw, charles a mw (modern standards 168 would prob be his division). the size difference is huge. that's not time, it's just reality.

editied i couldn't spell satnards.

 

neither do I. Liston was a natural exception. The view now, is the modern view. It’s not the view then. The historical limitations were firmly still in place until a different point in history. For whatever reason the natural exceptions that history produced still rarely made it to full potential and did not surpass the high regard for classic sized heavyweights of which Walcott and Charles numbered.

Liston was 210- 220 and Charles 180. In those days the weight was not regarded so much of an issue. Because it wasn’t for another generation or so. An elite 175 pounder was considered a match for most elite “heavyweights”. It’s a huge issue now. But it was not then.

 

Liston by KO. Charles was a lethargic fighter and I never cared for him. I think Sonny will catch him at some point and the fight is over.

 

Also, when Walcott KO'd Johnson, he was 36 and Johnson was 21. Walcott also KO'd Harold's father, Phil Johnson, 14 years earlier.

 

Exactly. Walcott is vastly overlooked at times.

Harold Johnson would beat Eddie Machen, Doug Jones, Nino Valdes ….and of course Ezzard Charles.

 

Sonny only lost in his prime to Ali. I'm not sure that anyone pre-80s other than Ali beats that version especially not someone who started at MW.

As good as Ezzard was and he had numerous advantages, I don't think he beats the best Liston.

 

Does he beat the worst Liston?

 

The KTFO by Leotis Martin version? I could see that.

 

An odd statement to say the least. Harold Johnson would've been Liston's 8th opponent had the fight commenced. A win over him would've meant nothing at that stage in Liston's career. As a matter of fact, I'd be very very surprised if Johnson didn't win.

 

No It would have been Listons 15th fight not his 8th. It was the 3rd Marshal fight that Harold was the intended opponent and not the first fight between them.

 

I'd pick Ezzard Charles Adams over Liston.