Faded Greats

I'm afraid delusional is the correct term for you buddy! :hey

I just think that RJJ is too old and over the hill to be considered in the same light as when LL fought Tyson etc...All you have to do is look at RJJ's last performance. Tito should have been despatched well before close of play.

I still think that a win is a win and RJJ is a good name for JC's CV but TBH KP is a FHOF'er and would be the jewel in the crown. I think he is capable of doing it too. Now that would be a fine way to finish off and cement his legacy.

Come on JC.
:bbb

 

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I was one of those delusional ****s who thought Tyson would beat Lewis...
Not cos I thought Lewis wasnt the real deal or anything, I just couldnt let go of my old prime Tyson memories, & thought he could roll back the clock one more time.
When it comes to Tyson, reasoning went out of the window with most people back then, just cos they had such great memories of Prime Tyson, & hoped we would see that back again, cos prime Tyson was like nothing anyone has ever witnessed before or since in the heavyweight division.
Nostalgia ruled when people picked him to beat lennox.

I dont know if Im making sense here, hopefully people know what I mean. Im struggling to word it correctly.

Im a smarter fan now than I was back then though, first rule of big fight picking is dont let the heart rule the head.

 

There is a passing resemblence I will grant you that. I dont know about the JC-BH fight resembling well...a fight tbh!!!

Before fighting LL, Tyson had only ever lost to Douglas and Holyfield (x2) so I don't know about having 'no ****ing chance', RJJ lost to Tarver, Johnson and then Tarver again way back in 2004/5 and his powers have definately been on the wane since then.

 

After the build-up I never thought I'd end up feeling so sad watching Tyson take that pummelling but it just seemed so surreal. Tyson just seemed resigned to his beating from the first bell and without the speed from his prime to get inside Lewis there was just no chance. RJJ is fresher from a mental perspective and retains a certain amount of the old speed as he hasn't put himself through the same excesses Tyson did. But the odds are that his legs still won't be able to stand the pace. The Trinidad fight could end up being the worst preparation for Jones where he was able to stand in front of Trinidad and wait for him to finish his flurries before doing what he wanted

 

Lewis should get little, or no credit for beating up that version of Tyson; sadly he does. The amount of times I've read "yea but Lewis beat Tyson", is really disheartening. During his time Lewis didn't have a huge amount of kudos given to him due to the fact that people didn't believe he really fight anyone. Now with time, there is no doubt that people look at his resume and see the names Tyson and Holyfield. Sure, most know they were faded, but make no mistake they still count. They shouldn't do, but they do.

I feel the Same will happen with Calzaghe/Jones in a few years or more. Few will remember that Roy now moves like he has a sand bag on each foot, and appears to have the stamina of a 60 a day smoker.

It's already happening with the Hopkins win. It's a good little win for Joe no doubt, but there are posts popping up all over the boards already; even in this very short time spell: "Yea, but Joe beat Hopkins therefore going by that alone he's greater". He may well be, but not for beating up a 43 year old version of Hopkins.

In general, faded star names on other boxers resumes annoys me greatly; especially when that boxer is a name himself and around his prime. I find it nothing short of fraudulent.

 

Apart from when you are discussing Hatton of course. Then the P4P list comes out and you rate the fighter off that and not age.

 

Tyzue was faded, but he's hardly in the league of a totally shot Roy Jones or even a 43 year old Hopkins who had previously lost to Taylor twice.

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wont get no arguments from me that he was perhaps past his best and fairly inactive. He wasn't in his 40s though and had previously taken heavy defeats! It's indisputable that Tszyu's record over the last 4 years prior to facing Hatton, beats the total joke that is Roys. Hatton destroyed Kosta and made him quit on his stool as well.

The Castillo fight is more comparable to the Hopkins and Jones fights. You wont find me giving him, any credit whatsoever for that, other then stating he was in the p4p top ten (which he was) and it was a great body shot. If your going to beat an old Great but has been, at least destroy them rather then scrape a SD. :smooch

Hatton gets little to no credit for the Castillo win and rightly so.

 

I totally agree about RJJ.

Hopkins was coming off wins against Tarver + Wright and has never taken a heavy defeat.

I don't want to get into an argument I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

 

Hopkins was beaten by Taylor twice, more convincingly then Joe did as well.

There is no hypocrisy whatsoever. If you look back through my posts I think you will find I give Joe credit for the Hopkins win, and have posted such time and time again. Despite him obviously being past his best, Hopkins still has something in the tank.

I think it's unfair to drag

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(due to his age and Joe's status at the time), the RJJ fight is not.

Anyway, with time (faded memories), personally I think Joe will get credit for a RJJ win. That's what this thread is about.

 

That is where I disagree with you. I find you a total hypocrite. You use P4P lists when they back up your arguments and then discount them when they don't.

What was Calzaghe's status at the time - I think him and Hopkins were 1 place apart on The Ring's P4P list, and I know how highly you regard that list (when it suits you).

Anyway you have your point of view and I have mine and it doesn't look like they are going to change anytime soon. There is talk of Pavlik facing Hopkins in October, if that fight goes ahead depending on the outcome Calzaghe's win may be seen in a different light.

 

Before the fight was made, there were hardened Calzaghe fans on here stating that they would rather see him face a "live body" (like Dawson for example) then Popkins.

I give credit to Joe for his win over Hopkins (and constantly do); your sentiments regarding hypocrisy really don't hold water. I fully acknowledge Bernard's P4P ranking at the time; and it is partly the reason why I give some kudos to the victory. I also acknowledge Castillo's P4P ranking at the time he fought Hatton, but I give limited credit to that victory.

In fact, I could call you a hypocrite for giving Joe credit for his win over Hopkins, but constantly ridiculing, questioning, Hattons win over a much younger Tszyu. I wouldn't do that though.

I think the Hopkins result was a decent one, but I'm not giving Joe credit for beating RJJ. No. Sorry.

 

I think the Hopkins/Holyfield comparison is a fair one because Holyfield was ageing when he fought Lewis but had still been competing at a high level & held titles. The Jones/Tyson comparison, however, is not a fair one because although Tyson had been knocked out it wasn't in the manner Jones had.

Either way I'm ready to lay off Calzaghe now, we all know he could have done things differently but discussing it is as useful as trying to turn back time. If he has a couple more fights & provides entertainment then thats good enough for me.