FANTASY FIGHT: Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Pernell Whitaker (15 Rounds/Poll)

@greynotsoold

Whilst Mayweather didn't face a southpaw until he moved up from Lightweight.

In Mayweather's very first fight above Lightweight he did face southpaw DeMarcus Corley and beat him very handily in a exciting performance.

And apart from Judah who gave him trouble in the first 4 rounds. Normally Mayweather had no real difficulties with any of the southpaws he did fight.

To my recollection these are all the southpaws Mayweather did fight I'm not including Conor McGregor.

Manny Pacquiao
Robert Guerrero
Victor Ortiz
Sharmba Mitchell
Zab Judah
DeMarcus Corley

As for the fight itself Whitaker did face Roger Mayweather early in his career. Who is somewhat relevant to Floyd Mayweather Jr's style especially with the shoulder roll.

Whitaker did beat him quite handily but he also had a few scary moments in the later rounds being dropped and hurt.

I think all in all out of all the opponents Whitaker and Mayweather have fought. The only real 2 opponents who resemble either Whitaker or Mayweather would be Zab Judah or Roger Mayweather.

Both Whitaker and Mayweather had a few problems in those fights. Which probably gives us some indications stylistically how Whitaker and Mayweather would be effective

Whitaker would give Mayweather issues with his southpaw style and awkward angles.

Mayweather would find holes in Whitakers defence with his pin point straight right hand.

If I had to pick someone ? I'd probably go with Mayweather by razor thin decision. As Mayweather seemed to have better luck at winning close fights than Whitaker did.

Whitaker would throw more punches than Mayweather. But maybe Mayweather's more eye catching pot shots would catch the eye of the judges.

It would be a highly controversial decision though.

 

I remember saying on a Duran vs Whitaker thread years ago that when you have two fighters who are both elite in a category e.g. offensively / defensively, the fight would be decided by who was better in the opposite category. In the case of Duran vs Whitaker you have an elite offense Vs elite defense, however Duran is also elite in defense imo whereas Pernell is just below elite offensively, therefore the fight would be decided by Duran chaining his defense into his attack more than Pernell can chain his attack into his defense, if that makes sense.

I think this bout is a similar case except both are elite on the defensive side, so it would be decided by the offensive capability. Personally I would favour Whitaker here. I think he would come on with his consistent (and underrated) body punching and that the effort later on would actually look pretty workmanlike and even ungainly, as often is with two elites squaring off - just slowly piling up shots and edging rounds. Can see him being troubled by the Money right hand but then adapting and throwing a left hand body shot underneath it to lower Money's work rate. Close fight!

 

Floyd had already spent time sparring against Whitaker.

Floyd has the best record against southpaws of any fighter, ever. I don't think southpaws were his problem.

 

Manny at 36 had some similarities to Whitaker.

 

Word has it Floyd was impressive against Pernell in the gym.

 

Two things.

Pernell was a much more accomplished fighter than Floyd at 135 lbs. I don't think that Floyd has more than four or five fights here if I remember.

Pete's jab is elite and his body punching and strength are underrated - his reflexes were much quicker than people often remember him for and whilst Floyd's defensive ability was more consistent and technically correct, Pernell's was arguably more impressive and was backed up by significant work rate.

Pete had great footwork but he crossed his feet - this has been noted during his fights. If anyone is going to time him with a right hand, not named Duran or Leonard, it's likely Floyd.

This fight isn't easy at all - I could make a case for both fighters winning here but think likely Pernell's best is better than Floyd's best at the weight.

 

Whitaker narrowly wins the rounds but is screwed by the judges.

 

Timing is everything — I wanted to chew on this a bit before weighing in, and yesterday was like a 14-hour workday marathon.

Now I have voted and am ready to weigh in.

I hold that Sweet Pea is the best 140-pounder who ever lived as well as being an absolute H2H nightmare for anyone from 135-140. At welter, he more than held his own but was physically overmatched at times (the top opposition often being younger, bigger and stronger).

I do not run with the modernist wolves who posit that Mayweather was a fraud who always stacked the deck and avoided all challenges. That, to me, is more of an impression created by his Money May persona and choices to create bigger box-office ‘super fights’ after he supplanted Oscar de la Hoya as the No. 1 box office attraction in the sport. Floyd did, indeed, pick his spots more carefully at some point, but looking at his earlier body of work to rise to that position it is, to me, hard to argue against him being the preeminent fighter of his day.

I think without a doubt that Whitaker has the better and deeper body of work at lightweight, even with the loss to Jose Luis Ramirez (and I am on record as scoring that bout for the highly underrated JLR, who outworked a still-immature Pernell on my card to nip it). Floyd had fewer than a handful of fights at this weight — two against Jose Luis Castillo and two against lesser lights.

But that’s not what Our Rummy, Mr @Rumsfeld, has tasked us with determining here. It’s simply this — who WINS at 135?

Indeed, these are two defensive masters. Floyd was a technical marvel in the pocket who could nullify an opponent with blocking, slipping and upper-body movement, whereas Pernell could do the same but was a mesmerizing mover who seemed always just out of reach … yet somehow able to land himself. He’s a half-step off center line, now-you-see-him-now-you-don’t kind of guy who’s always at an odd angle.

You cannot hit either guy with a handful of salt, so maybe this comes down to who has some pepper in his spice rack. Mayweather has a laser-guided right lead that comes at the speed of light, an excellent weapon to employ against a southpaw. As @greynotsoold astutely points out, Roger Mayweather did drop Whitaker, but I see him as more of a high-leverage sniper than the sometimes reluctant Floyd Jr. Pernell, however, has a better and more varied offense, with a thumping jab and a thudding body attack.

It is the body attack that I think makes the difference here. Sweet Pea seemed impossible to win more than a round or two off of at his best, so I think he takes away that Money May right hand, and also takes it well when it lands. He finds his way past the shoulder roll by using his footwork to attack at odd angles, and makes round-winning deposits in the belly bank by concentrating on body work.

By the midpoint of the fight, I think Pea has Floyd distressed — he knows he is behind, so he has to take to the front foot and stalk, which isn’t his most comfortable posture. That’s where Sweet Pea’s jab and footwork come into play. Mayweather presses and overextends trying to bridge the southpaw distance, and this starts to look a bit like Whitaker vs Azumah, a professor who got taken to school — Floyd leads, Pea pops him with jabs; when Mayweather does close the gap, he eats a few well-placed body shots and Pernell slides to the side and becomes a ghost. Reset, rinse, repeat.

Pernell 10-5 in rounds in a fight where he wins the geometry and uses that spice rack like Bobby Flay — a pinch of jab here, a sprinkling of body shots there and too much buttery footwork for Floyd to cook.

 

If you think Pernell would find a way to win twice as many rounds as Floyd, you're saying that he'd beat the guy with the best southpaw resume in history roughly as easily as he beat Pendleton and Jorge Paez, and more easily than Ramirez (L) and a blown up Azumah Nelson.

 

You pretty much covered all the salient bases there. I can neither dispute nor add to any of it. (I did consider some kind of pithy 'spice' reference, but why risk ruining a perfectly good recipe?)

Pernell gets my vote, too.

 

How did you come to the conclusion that Floyd had the best record against southpaws of any fighter, ever?

 

No way does Floyd have the ingredients to win Sweet Pea’s Grocery Games.

 

Because it's true.

 

After a quick rewatch of a Young Floyd vs Judah and Mitchell; I think Whitaker takes this one. Floyd had a different style for Southpaws, where he stuck up his high guard, came forward and lead with his straight right hand, then went to the body. He wanted both of these two on the ropes to eliminate Judah's speed advantage and Mitchell's weird angles.

I don't think this would work particularly well against Whitaker.

For one, Whitaker is so much better of a mover than Judah or Mitchell, or anyone Floyd fought, that Julio Cesar Chavez couldn't keep him on the ropes for long. If Floyd can't keep Whitaker on the ropes, then his straight right leads will play straight into the open side counter; a crucial part of Whitaker's game. Mayweather's idea of going to the body is a good one, but Whitaker always seemed to have his arms in the right spots to have a barrier around his mid section whenever he needed it, I highly doubt Floyd makes Whitaker wilt when better pressure fighters and body punchers couldn't. Finally there's the jab, something which Floyd hasn't ever really faced - a good, landing southpaw jab. Judah's sucked, Mitchell's was more pawing and Pacquiao famously doesn't land many jabs and had an injured right arm. I suspect that jab from Whitaker nips more rounds than Floyd wants it to before he has an answer to it, and even when he does have an answer, it's still be something Whitaker uses to draw counters.

I suspect Floyd would find adaptions to some of these things, such as using feints and counters to the body to try and work around the open side counter; trying to get at the chest instead of the mid section with the body work and finding defensive answers to the jab - but I think he'd start off a step behind in terms of strategy, and too many rounds would go the other way.

I'd probably not come outside for a month after it happened

 

Reggie Sanders who Floyd fought in his second pro bout was a southpaw. He actually cut Floyd and kept it competitive before losing a 4 rd UD.