Not really, I've tried to put it down a couple of times. In the end, you've made claims about Mayweather that i've found ridiculous. I've explained to you why. But I'll explain now in more detail. You say it's impossible for Mayweather to "put it on the line", can't even remember what you said anymore tbh, but something like he would never put his reputation or his unbeaten record on the line. Here is a list of fighters Mayweather fought at a time when they were ranked one of the ten best fighters on the planet in their weight division, in the world. To whit - they were one of the ten best at doing boxing that Mayweather could possibly have fought: Genaro Hernandez (1) Angel Manfredy (4) Diego Corrales (1) Jesus Chavez (4) Jose Luis Castillo (1) x2 Victoriana Sosa (10) DeMarcus Corley (3) Arturo Gatti (1) Zab Judah (1) Carlos Baldimor (2) Oscar De La Hoya (3) Ricky Hatton (Un) Juan Manuel Marquez (Un) Shane Mosley (1) Victor Ortiz (3) Miguel Cotto (1) Robert Guerrero (5) Saul Alvarez (2) Marcos Maidana (6) x2 Manny Pacquiao (4) That's astonishing. It's in no way normal. Multiple times in his career he met a world's #1 (Champion or ranked contender, rankings a mix of Ring and TBRB). I may have missed a few but that's that gist. I'll bet that no four fighters in my 11-20 in any of the classic weight divisions COMBINE to have met that many legitimate contenders. That anyone, anyone at all, can look at that and say "he didn't want to put his reputation or record on the line" is ****ing astonishing to me. It's grossly, grossly offence to say that about someone like Orlando Canizales, who met zero number one contenders and fought a series of alphabet nominees more often than not ranked outwith any meaningful top ten. That's a really stupid thing to say about Orlando though; he fought too many dangerous men for that to be fair. So yeah, when you say that, that's a total joke to me. Now the first time I pointed this out, I pointed out that he fought one or two dangerous guys and among them I named Cotto. You offered up the opinion that because Cotto had lost a couple, this meaning was less special. So in the shape of something like two posts we've got A) the man who fought either the most or second most of the men named in the top ten in the whole world at doing boxing as ranked by a reputable source in his generation "didn't put his rep or record on the line" and B) Cotto isn't unbeaten, so beating him doesn't mean as much. You criticise Floyd for being overprotective of his "0" then attack Cotto for not having his. It's literally all that's bad about modern fandom. Yes; you think that because Floyd Mayweather wouldn't let one of the twenty odd contenders he met wear the gloves he wants, he would turn down a one billion dollar payday. I find that beyond preposterous. How would you like to proceed now? How would you like to "debate"? Here's a thought. Let's look at Ray Robinson. - Turned down a career high payday against Charley Burley to protect his record, he didn't want to put it, or his reputation on the line. - So ducked the best or second best fighter who he could have ever met - Walked out on a charity match because he feared Cocoa Kid, letting down the charity he promised to fight on behalf of. - Consorted with the Mafia. - Once allegedly, apologising to the Mafia for knocking out an opponent earlier than agreed with them - Had a reputation of being difficult to deal with throughout his career - Beat his pregnant wife. What does that tell you about his character? Why do you think this guy, who ducked two of the best fighters of his era to protect his record, would be getting into the ring with someone like Floyd Maywether. I just don't see it. A defensively brilliant spoiler who was difficult to look good against who might actually have beaten him? Robinson had a history of ducking fighters like that and on one occasion, for what was then big money for him. Can't see him fighting Floyd Maywether for 300m dollars. I've given you the facts! I see you arguing with those guys for hours about Roy Jones, and usually, you're right when you're talking about him. But tonight, you're those guys.
You can't expect people on the general forum to know who Cocoa Kid is. One look at boxrec is all you'll get.
harsh though. Remember, Intentional Butt posts in here. There was a day though, yeah, where loads of folk knew him.
You know what, actually I was thinking this yesterday, there's far less trolls on the general forum than I remember there being. There was a time when this forum was a joke tbh, but it seems a lot more reasonable lately. Still a bit too much fanboyism going on for my liking but I guess that's what keeps the sport going.
McGrain, You’ve completely ignored everything that doesn’t suit your argument. I listed a number of Floyd’s actions throughout the years, yet you ignored them. I then listed them again. But again, you ignored them. I said that based upon his actions that I listed, it’s illogical to think that he’d have fought Ray, and especially the version from your scenario. Why on earth have you posted his opponents up? I’m fully aware of who he fought. I watched his whole career. Those names are nothing without context. If you’re not going to apply context, then you don’t want an objective debate. Is your above list supposed to be proof that he’d have fought Ray? Ray Robinson was head and shoulders above every single guy on that list. He was much more of a threat than any of those guys. I didn’t say that he literally didn’t put himself at risk, as again, every pro fight brings with it an element of risk. But he minimised the risk as much as possible in order to reach his goal of 50-0. I have listed his actions a number of time that prove that. Again, you have completely ignored what I’ve written. What on earth are you talking about? When Cotto was prime and the WW division was hot, Floyd retired. When he finally fought Cotto, Cotto had taken 2 sustained beatings. He was faded. Yes, there was risk involved. It was a fight. But there was nothing overly impressive about beating that specific version of Cotto. Is fighting a faded Cotto supposed to prove that he’d have been willing to have fought Ray? How have I attacked Cotto? Stop being silly. Ha! The Maidana incident was just ONE of MANY incidents that I listed. Okay. Just ONE. What about the others? Do I really need to list them again? Maybe you’ll take them onboard this time. Floyd would not fight Canelo, a fellow JMW, at JMW. He would not fight a prime Manny Pacquiao, even when Manny had agreed to everything. He deliberately cheated JMM on the scales. He wouldn’t let Maidana wear his gloves. He retired early. When he finally fought a faded Manny, he needed a secret IV which was illegal. Yet in your world, the above actions tell you that he’d have faced Ray Robinson? So: He wouldn’t fight a prime version of Manny, but we’re supposed to believe he’d have fought Ray Robinson, who in your scenario, would have beaten Manny and the rest beforehand? Ha! Are you serious? Do you know how illogical and dumb that is? A guy who wouldn’t fight a prime Manny and a fellow JMW at JMW, would have fought Ray Robinson? Have a word with yourself. You can criticise him for not fighting Burley. He did not consort with the mafia. He had 200 fights. He rematched La Motta, just 3 weeks after one of their fights. He fought Joey Maxim at LHW. Floyd couldn’t even fight a JMW at JMW. He needed an MMA fighter to reach 50-0. You haven’t given me facts. It’s not a fact that he consorted with the mafia. He famously wouldn’t consort with them, which is why many people believe that he had to wait so long for a title shot. Floyd did jail time for domestic violence. If Ray also did that, which I believe he did after comments by his son, then that’s disgusting. Obviously I don’t condone that. But we’re looking at his character as a fighter, not a man. As a fighter, why would Ray have feared Floyd? Was Floyd Charles Burley? Floyd was a safety first fighter at WW. Ray was taller. He had a bigger reach. He was stronger. He was far more powerful. He had a great chin. A peak version of Ray Robinson had all of the advantages I’ve just listed, and he’d have been a lot more dangerous than Manny Pacquiao, who Floyd wouldn’t fight in his prime. Again, if Floyd had such an issue fighting Manny, as well as Canelo at the weight, then it’s only logical to believe that he’d have gone nowhere near a guy who was even better than what those guys were. It’s very simple. Again, you don’t need to be a detective, a psychologist or possess psychic powers. If he wouldn’t fight lesser guys without pulling his BS, then he wouldn’t have fought a better guy, who in your scenario, would have beaten one of those lesser fighters. There’s no logic in thinking otherwise. The only way he’d have fought Ray, is if Ray had been at a significant disadvantage. As in - having been badly faded etc. Floyd Mayweather would not have fought the version of Ray Robinson from your scenario. And if you think otherwise, you are living in a fantasy.
I express clearly in the last post that I don't think your list would stop Floyd taking a 300m dollar payday, 500m dollar payday, 260m dollar payday. I disagree with you that that list proves anything. I find it no more or less impressive than the one I produced for Sugar himself. If you didn't catch on, see the above in black and white. Your list doesn't impress me one little bit as regards a block to the single biggest payday in boxing history. Because you repeatedly claimed that he wouldn't put his reputation or record on the line. He's clearly, inarguably and beyond all hope of contradiction done so. Now I can repeat that for the fifteenth time or I can expand upon it, in case anybody else is reading. I can ignore you, or expand upon the point more forcefully. If you look at that list and need "context", that's fine, I'll leave you to it. Cotto was absolutely punch perfect in Margarito II, a performance he himself rated high and my pick fo this best performance. Probably doesn't count for you because Margarito had received a sustained beatings. I suspect the sustained beatings that LaMotta, Turpin and Kid Gavlin sustained before they met Robinson won't count in the same way for you. I'll bet this "follow the losses" treatment is a special gift for Floyd. But, either way, we fundamentally disagree. I think Cotto looked sensational right before he took on Floyd, he was ranked the best in the world in his division, for you, context, bad win. OK. Can't see any way for us to joint these particular dots. For God's sake Loudon. I DON'T THINK THE LIST OF "CHARACTER FLAWS" YOU HAVE PRODUCED REGARDING FLOYD "PROVES" HE WOULDN'T TAKE A RECORD BREAKING PAYDAY OF X AMOUNT. And presumably for hammering his pregnant wife? He did, by his own testimony, and that of his son. Robinson refused to drop one to LaMotta but carried opponents according to Ray Robinson Junior. Ray himself had no problem admitting to consorting with the Mafia; it wasn't even a secret[/QUOTE]
McGrain, He nearly gave that kind of pay day up against Manny. The fight against Manny was the biggest grossing fight of all time. The fight with Manny was there for over 5 years. Floyd wouldn’t take it. If Manny had retired from the sport before 2015, Floyd would have lost that pay day. If Manny hadn’t have declined and been iced by Marquez, Floyd wouldn’t have taken the fight and would have lost that pay day. Even after he’d seen Manny decline and get knocked out, he still needed an illegal IV and the backing of a corrupt organisation in order to fight him. So it’s not a given that he’d have fought Ray Robinson for a huge payday. Again, I refer back to your own hypothetical scenario. In your scenario, Ray would have beaten Manny and everyone else relevant beforehand. That means that he’d have presented Floyd with a monster challenge. That means that Ray would have been a much bigger fight, a much bigger threat and a much bigger risk. So if he left $250m on the table for 5 years with Manny, who’s to say he’d have taken a huge amount to fight a better and more dangerous fighter? There’s no guarantee at all he’d have taken the fight. Because even a pay day of $300m plus might not have been enough to seriously have risked losing his zero. Again, how much was that zero worth to him? IMHO, Floyd would rather have retired unbeaten than been a billionaire with a loss on his resume. He did many things to minimise the risk. Fighting a faded version of Cotto was less dangerous than trying to fight a prime version of Cotto. Fighting a faded version of Manny was less dangerous than fighting a prime version of Manny. Fighting an injured Manny who needed shoulder surgery gave him an advantage. Taking an illegal IV gave him an advantage. Trying to drain Canelo gave him an advantage. Purposely outweighing Marquez gave him an advantage. Stopping Maidana from wearing his preferred gloves gave him an advantage. He wouldn’t put his resume on the line against a prime version of Manny, or a 154 version of Canelo. It was a good-very good win, nothing more. Cotto didn’t look sensational before or after. After being beaten by Marg and Manny, he beat Foreman and then got revenge on Marg, who’d been knocked out by Shane and beaten by Manny. He then fought Floyd before losing to Austin Trout. Fighting a faded Cotto was a much safer option that fighting the version of Ray from your scenario. Well it surely proves that there’s a good chance that he wouldn’t have taken it. Again, he was willing to give up the $250m that he eventually made against Manny for over 5 years. Again, under different circumstances, he would have lost that huge pay day. Why even bring that up? I’ve already told you that it was disgusting. I’m talking about the character of the fighter. One guy fought 200 times. The other guy was risk adverse and minimised the risk in trying to surpass Rocky Marciano’s record. Okay, he may have carried a few guys. He didn’t throw any fights. He refused to throw fights. How is this relevant? There’s nothing to suggest that Ray wouldn’t have fought Floyd. He took far more risks than what Floyd did.
Yeah, but he didn't, he fought him, and made enormous money. I agree that if Ray Robinson refused drug testing, Mayweather might not fight him. Well Floyd wanted to control Manny's drug testing. There are two ways to feel about that. I feel that if a fighter wants to live up some fo the highest standards for drug testing in sport, I support that fully. Just as Mayweather could have dropped the requirement for drug testing, Manny could have done the drug-testing. Personally I side with the fighter that wanted the drug testing, rather than the one that didn't. But, in the end, the fact that Pacquiao and Mayweather fought for colossal money supports the notion that he would fight Robinson for considerably more, it doesn't stand against him at all. But it is a given that he wouldn't have? That he fought Manny Pacquiao is somehow proof that he wouldn't fight Ray Robinson? All of this is very strange. Yeah the fight might not have happened. But I think it would have because of the colossal amount of money involved. You think it definitely wouldn't have. I understand. And the reverse also being true of course. Fortunately, all I do is give credit for what happened: Mayweather fought the number one fighter in the division excepting himself, who looked good in his last fight, and beat him clean and clear. If you understand that fact exactly as it stands, all the rest of this stuff just falls away. Don't overcredit him, don't undercredit him, just credit him for what he did. Beat one of the best in the world at the time. It's not. That's sort of the point. No more or less than the little list you put together. What you did is easy and meaningless. Let's do Joe Louis. - Ducked a rematch with Max Schmeling - Bribed a vulnerable champion into putting his title on the line, using his financial muscle to leap front the more dangerous Shcmeling. - Finally rematched the past-prime Schmeling - Organized his personal referee to referee numerous world-title fights, literally naming his own offical - Hardly matched any black fighters - Fought John Henry Lewis because he was going blind - Bailed out by his officials against Joe Walcott - Avoided #1 contender and the best puncher of his generation in Elmar Ray Didn't like to meet black fighters and needed to name his own officials; avoided punchers; preferred to meet the best fighters he met when they were already past prime. What makes you think he'd sign to fight a prime Mike Tyson? I've given you the facts! No way he would fight him for $100m dollars. Ridiculous. Really? Nothing? How about: -Fought some of the best fighters of his generation -Fought more number one contenders than any fighter since the 70s (I think) -Fought more ranked contenders than allbut 0.001% of fighters in history -Was extremely good at doing boxing You really think that's nothing? I mean there's no explanation for that but wild bias if you really believe it.
Guys, ya'll are going round in circles. While I tend to side more with Loudon on whether Floyd would have fought Robinson, the truth is that we can't really put forward as a fact something that never happened. I think that he'd probably try to dodge it or if he had no choice, age SRR out like he did with Pacman. But it's not a fact.
Just to consider. Floyd fought all of the best boxer/punchers around his weight class. Robinson did not fight all of the best defensive slicksters around his weight class. Someone with Floyd's style would have been considered high risk low reward in the era of Robinson.
Good post. And this is the most likely scenario based on Floyd's past actions. But it's all a guess. If Floyd "retired" when WW was red hot...sure he'll have either a 147 or 160 SRR.
That's part of the reason why Robinson was so hesitant to face Burley. Anyway, I think if you put Floyd in the 1940's, he'd be fighting more often from the hop and less likely to concern himself with an "0" as a result. He wasn't hesitant to face his greatest threats in the initial stage of his career, so he's probably not shy about facing the likes of Montgomery, Jack, Angott, and Williams, and I think he does pretty well against that crew and wins the 135lb championship at some point before moving up to welterweight. Having been battle-hardened by those fights, I don't see any reason why Floyd would have an issue facing SRR. (As an aside, if they come up at the same time, they might well fight at least once on the way up at 135 before SRR moves up to 147.) If you transplant SRR to the modern era, it becomes a question of when they meet in their respective careers. Sure...I could see an older, cagier Floyd trying to catch a younger SRR in the latter's nascent stage, exacting a catchweight/rehydration clause and going from there. But, I could see a younger, ascendant Mayweather not giving a **** and calling out SRR in the same manner he did with Mosley when the latter was running wild at 135lbs. Either way, I don't see Floyd having any issue with getting into the ring with SRR, though the demands that the two would make of one another and their respective personalities might make for some interesting negotiations.
McGrain, Again, he was extremely fortunate that the fight was still available in 2015. He risked that huge sum of money for 6 years. Manny didn’t refuse drug testing. It wasn’t as straight forward as that and you know it. Testing of that nature wasn’t commonplace back then. Floyd never tested any of his other opponents in the same way, and nobody else had an issue fighting Manny. Yes, if everyone else had been tested and it was commonplace but Manny had refused without a legitimate reason, then it would have raised huge red flags. But again, that’s not what happened. They negotiated for the first 6 months through the media, with no issues regarding testing. Floyd never mentioned it at all. It was only when Floyd Snr accused Manny of being dirty that Floyd was suddenly on a mission to clean up the sport. Floyd then wanted the testing. Manny agreed to be tested but not to OSDT. He only wanted to submit to 3 separate tests. Floyd refused. He wanted OSDT up until the day of the fight. But Manny wanted a 30 day cut off, due to what had happened against Morales in 2005. Again, nobody did OSTD back then. But Floyd wouldn’t agree. They then went back and forth for a number of months arguing on the number of cut off days, until Floyd eventually said that it was either 14 days or nothing. When they couldn’t reach a compromise, they then went their separate ways. Manny then went back and agreed to the 14 day cut off that Floyd had proposed. And that’s when the fight should have been made. Floyd had gotten what he wanted. But no. Floyd said that the 14 days was off the table. He then offered to give Manny a flat fee of $40m, from a fight which grossed over $400m. Then in 2012, Manny agreed to all of Floyd’s demands. He said he’d undertake OSDT up until the fight. The fight still didn’t happen. That should prove to you and any logical thinking person that the fight not happening earlier had nothing to do with drug testing. Then when the fight finally did happen, it was Floyd who had an illegal IV in secret without notifying anyone. It was Floyd who wanted a retroactive TUE clause putting in the USADA contract. It doesn’t. He risked losing that huge pay day until Manny had declined. In your scenario, Ray Robinson would have beaten Manny and cleared out the rest of the division. So Ray Robinson would have brought a much bigger test than a prime version of Manny would have. He fought a version of Manny who had declined and who’d been iced by Marquez. He would not fight a prime version of Manny, even after Manny had agreed to the testing. So no, he wouldn’t have fought Ray Robinson. You don’t go from not fighting a peak version of Manny, to fighting Ray Robinson. There’s no logic in that. You can think what you like. But in my opinion, it would be illogical to think that it would have. There’s been too many things that’s happened in Floyd’s career to lead me to think otherwise. You want to use him fighting Cotto as some sort of evidence that he’d have fought Ray. But it’s irrelevant. I can see clearly what point you’re trying to prove. It’s not enough. Joe Louis fought almost 70 times. He retired by fighting a prime Rocky Marciano whilst he was way past his best. Floyd retired against Andre Berto, before needing an MMA fighter in order to reach 50-0. I didn’t say that it was literally nothing. I said that none of that would point to him fighting the version of Ray Robinson from your scenario.
