Feelings on Marciano vs Louis??

Let's bring this back to reality and pretend that the discussion hasn't veer over the precipice of fantasy...

Contemporary thoughts on Louis' ability. All quotes from articles and opinions published in 1951.

"Ex-Champ Louis Must Locate Punch He Lost a Few Years Ago... He has lost his old punch.... Louis must locate the punch he lost three or four years ago.... It has been a dull story ever since Joe Louis lost his punch, his hand speed and his reflex actions in the ring." - Grantland Rice

"Joe's blockbust right, not as powerful as in his prime..." (AP report on Agramonte fight)

"Everybody, including Louis, knows that the Brown Bomber has lost his entire collection of reflexes, the most important factor in both offense and defense... Joe can't hit a moving target except by accident... Today all the handspeed is but a memory.. That's the Joe Louis of 1951" - The Ringside Scramble

"(Louis) hasn't got that right hand. Somewhere he misplaced his reflexes." Francis Stann, Evening Star

"His fights since his "comeback" started have been farcical, and the man has embroidered too much dignity into his life to wind up as a pathetic has-been..." - Robert Ruark, NY

"The old zip and spark is gone from Louis." Adrian Brodeur

 

Seamus, Let's bring this back to reality and pretend that the discussion hasn't veer over the precipice of fantasy...

Fantasy, not really ck out the last :30 sec of the 1st rd, for one brief moment Louis threw a combination that landed and rocked the Rock. And that is all I have been saying and arguing. Saying that Louis was basically a one handed fighter, and had no power, and barely used his right hand, is the fantasy, the evidence is there to be seen, doesnt need some scribes opinion to tell you what you can see for yourself.
Louis threw plenty of rights inside, Rocky was bulling him, Louis didnt have his punching distance cos Rocky took that away from him.
Nobody in any of the posts on this thread said this was the Louis of old, this was an old Louis.

Contemporary thoughts on Louis' ability. All quotes from articles and opinions published in 1951.
We all know scribes are not always right and report only the whats obvious to anybody seeing an old Louis, whats so new that he wasnt the Louis of old, really you dont need some scribe to tell you that, he was 37, was that a major story, Louis was not the Louis of old?

"Ex-Champ Louis Must Locate Punch He Lost a Few Years Ago... He has lost his old punch.... Louis must locate the punch he lost three or four years ago.... It has been a dull story ever since Joe Louis lost his punch, his hand speed and his reflex actions in the ring." - Grantland Rice
Rice forgot that 3-4 yrs ago that Louis ko'd JJW

"Joe's blockbust right, not as powerful as in his prime..." (AP report on Agramonte fight)
Here ya go "Joe's blockbust right, not as powerful as in his prime", really?

"Everybody, including Louis, knows that the Brown Bomber has lost his entire collection of reflexes, the most important factor in both offense and defense...
Joe can't hit a moving target except by accident... Today all the handspeed is but a memory.. That's the Joe Louis of 1951" - The Ringside Scramble

True enough I mentioned that also, but in this instance he wasnt fighting a moving target the target was in front of him

"(Louis) hasn't got that right hand. Somewhere he misplaced his reflexes." Francis Stann, Evening Star
Pointing out the obvious to everybody Louis' reflexes werent there, was that a newsflash?

"His fights since his "comeback" started have been farcical, and the man has embroidered too much dignity into his life to wind up as a pathetic has-been..." - Robert Ruark, NY
Jeez thats kinda harsh the man was fighting decent journeymen and was facing a younger man with who proved his worth.

"The old zip and spark is gone from Louis." Adrian Brodeur[/QUOTE]
Another brilliant scribe pointing out the obvious, therein lies the fantasy, this wasnt the Louis of old it was an old Louis
Thanks for posting, reflexes and getting your punches to the target is a big factor in scoring ko's. Give Louis credit for fighting an unbeaten puncher. The saying the last thing to go is punching power, well known saying and true.

 

As far as i am concerned both these fighters have cemented their legacy. I know they weren't
perfect and had flaws but no matter what anybody drags up i will never change my mind.

 

Another brilliant scribe pointing out the obvious, therein lies the fantasy, this wasnt the Louis of old it was an old Louis
Thanks for posting, reflexes and getting your punches to the target is a big factor in scoring ko's. Give Louis credit for fighting an unbeaten puncher. The saying the last thing to go is punching power, well known saying and true.[/QUOTE]


Louis' right hand looked good against Savold. Savold was a sturdy guy and he got busted up pretty badly with a variety of punches, and the final right cross had him badly rocked to set up the left hook KO.

This content is protected

Also those are fair weather critics, I recall several articles about that were praising the return of his power after he knocked out Savold.

 

Another brilliant scribe pointing out the obvious, therein lies the fantasy, this wasnt the Louis of old it was an old Louis
Thanks for posting, reflexes and getting your punches to the target is a big factor in scoring ko's. Give Louis credit for fighting an unbeaten puncher. The saying the last thing to go is punching power, well known saying and true.[/QUOTE]


Q. Would you agree Louis's most powerful punch was his right cross?
A. Yes or No will suffice.-------
Q. How many did he throw against Marciano?
A. Please fill in this space.-------

For you to use JJW's ko in September 1948 by Louis as an example of him still retaining his power in his fight with Marciano in October 1951, nearly three and a half years later, a period that incorporated a 2 years retirement is ludicrous.

Agramonte had been stopped 6 times when he faced Louis ,who succeeded in dropping him but could not stop him in two attempts.Walcott had Agramonte on the floor 4 times in their fight before it was called off.
Flooring him does not indicate Louis still had his power.This was the first knockdown Louis had scored on his comeback.
Not being able to stop a man whom 6 others had indicates the opposite!
Like wise stopping Savold,[ who was nearly as old as Louis and just as ringworn,] who had been stopped 7 times ,and who would be stopped in his next and final fight, does not indicate Louis still retained his right hand power.
Beshore was stopped on cuts to which he was prone.
Journeyman Walker had been stopped 4 times previously ,he would have a further11 fights losing them all. 5 by stoppage
Louis' last fight previous to fighting Marciano was against Jimmy Bivins, 2 months previously,the AP report said this.

"Always chasing his retreating foe, Louis never was able to explode the bomb he carried in the days when he held the heavyweight title".
" I could tell early in the fight that Joe wasn't going to be able to handle Rocky.He wasn't punching with that old zing"Manny Seamon who trained Louis for the fight.
For you to be right, all the opinions of the ringside reporters who had seen Louis up close and personal ,from his beginnings up until his inevitable decline and sad end as a professional fighter would have to be wrong.
I'm saying you are the one who is wrong ,you are the one dealing in fantasy.
Two ringside writers say Louis no longer had his speed or reflexes,you dismiss this as pointing out the obvious ,yet ignore the implications of such a loss of speed and reflexes.

The two Muppets who are happily concurring with you are doing so to further their own agendas and would readily argue the earth is flat to advance them.

 

Anyone ask you to?

 

Louis' right hand looked good against Savold. Savold was a sturdy guy and he got busted up pretty badly with a variety of punches, and the final right cross had him badly rocked to set up the left hook KO.

This content is protected

Also those are fair weather critics, I recall several articles about that were praising the return of his power after he knocked out Savold.[/QUOTE]

Yes indeed! Young 36 years old Savold was a sturdy guy, the 7 stoppages on his sheet up until his second to last fight with Louis were anomalies that could happen to any sturdy guy.You sure tell it like it is Dan!
Attaboy Mongoose! We look forward to you posting these articles and demolishing these fair weather critics such as Grantland Rice .
WTF would he know?

 

These were guys who had watched Louis' career develop first hand since the 1930's. Their analysis is being questioned by some folks with youtube accounts.

OK. I have a president to sell you.

 

Yes indeed! Young 36 years old Savold was a sturdy guy, the 7 stoppages on his sheet up until his second to last fight with Louis were anomalies that could happen to any sturdy guy.You sure tell it like it is Dan!
Attaboy Mongoose! We look forward to you posting these articles and demolishing these fair weather critics such as Grantland Rice .
WTF would he know?[/QUOTE]

I was just sitting here enjoying my flawlessly prepared breakfast in my 4 bedroom house, I may respond if my schedule frees up.

 

There are probably the same bunch who voted Jack Dempsey the greatest fighter of the half-century in 1950.

 

I knew this was going to come up.

There is a fundamental difference between contrasting eras and commenting within a single fighter's career.

 

I don't think anyone is even questioning their observations. Louis certainly didn't pull the trigger against these men, but it's important to understand the context, minus Brion, these were busy fights with defensive minded veterans as Louis whipped himself into shape while the writers were contrasting him to his prime self after the disappointing loss to Charles. They were basically just a continuation of his exhibition circuit but counted as pro wins.

These same writers described the Savold fight as "like old times" and "return to form" blah blah blah. It's fair weather reporting which is understandable. The Savold fight was heavily promoted and the only one against a top rated contender filmed for theatrical screening, Louis clearly set out to make an impression with it. Not sure why cognitive reasoning is not being used to see the obvious.

 

You knew it was going to come up because you realized you sounded just like burt bienstock.

I don't think anyone has ever disputed that Joe Louis was a shell of his old self. The thing is, he was still among the top heavyweights of 1951. Grantland Rice himself said Louis belonged in that group, along with Charles, Walcott, Marciano. Those were the top 4.

 

Exactly.
Everyone agrees Joe Louis was a mere shadow of his old self.

 

"It's gonna be great!"lol