Felix Cash vs Austin Williams - June 10 // London

Long post, appreciate your passion. Going backwards:
Last sentence - agree.
I haven’t heard anyone say Lewis was crap when he retired. Wlad was not #2 P4P, no chance.
Lennox didn’t lose to Holyfield, it was a draw.
Personally I don’t rate Whyte and Chisora anywhere near the level of McCall and Rahman. Those 2 are journeymen plodders who have got lucky in this very poor era.
Don’t read too much into the big heavies comment. Those 3 heavy’s are IMO better than Fury. If he didn’t have the size he wouldn’t be all that. He does have good foot work and lateral movement though. In 25 years time the next batch of big heavies possibly will make Fury seem Lewis/Bowe size. To me that doesn’t matter, it’s about the era you box in and Tyson Fury, for me is nowhere near an ATG.

 

Those are fair points re holyfield/tyson.

 

Seems like Whyte hasn't fought for a while. He hasn't fought Takam, maybe that could be a decent tick over, keep busy fight for him, as Takam did well against Yoka. Bit of a high risk, low reward sort of fight though.

 

Lewis was regarded as cautious and glass chinned by many in his time. And his record was apparently "thin" even after Holyfield 1. Fury is in a better position currently, though that could ofc change if he lost.

Wlad was P4P No.2, check 2014:

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_Pound_For_Pound--2010s

Fury schooled him so badly they dropped him out of the top 10 entirely at the end of the year!

"Lennox didn’t lose to Holyfield"

I didn't say otherwise. But compare Fury's reaction to Lewis's in the rematch. Fury showed far more confidence/heart against a far more dangerous puncher, despite Lewis having massive physical advantages over Holyfield (who had been KO'd years prior) and Holyfield's ex-trainer in his corner. Fury showed a lot more greatness in his showdowns in America with Wilder than Lewis did with Holyfield. Even fighting Wilder within 6 months of Seferi was nuts.

"McCall and Rahman. Those 2 are journeymen plodders"

Indeed they are. One a crackhead with a 24-5 record, the other a relative greenhorn with 8 years boxing experience who lost to John Ruiz and Maskaev x2. Relative mediocrities that are hyped up to protect Lewis's reputation, or overrated simply because they KO'd Lewis. Andy Ruiz would have been considered a "bum" if he hadn't shredded Joshua but perhaps he just exposed Joshua's weaknesses, as McCall and Rahman did Lewis.

"If he didn’t have the size he wouldn’t be all that"

Fury's speed, agility and engine are freakish for a man of his size, if he were smaller he'd be even faster, more agile and fitter, which is the other side of the "P4P" coin that people often omit. Fury's skillset is exceptional for a big men (hence the Wlad schooling) and his mentality is exceptional (stronger than Lewis, far stronger than Bowe), along with the powers of recovery, experience, family pedigree and ease of underestimation.

"In 25 years time the next batch of big heavies possibly will make Fury seem Lewis/Bowe size"

Agreed.

"it’s about the era you box in"

I agree and Fury's era is not over, unlike all of the others. If he beats Usyk and retires as the first undisputed champion in 23 years his greatness won't be reasonably doubted in 5-10 years at the most.

 

Let’s agree to disagree on certain points, however it very unfair to call Hasim Rahman a journeyman type. You cannot compare him to Whyte / Chisora who Lewis wouldn’t have even used for sparring.

Ref Fury v Usyk, Fury should win due to size only. For me Usyk is the better technician and boxer.

 

nice to see debate like this, informed and polite. It enhances the forum. Fair play.

 

nonsense. Chisora is a warrior. And proven world level fighter. He'd be great sparring for anyone

 

Chisora is not and never will be world level, even in a very poor heavyweight division. Stop buying the Hearn hype.

 

Why is his mentality stronger than Lewis? Did Lewis have a "mental breakdown" ie a 2 year bender due to a failed drug test?

 

Exactly. You cannot compare the two athletes. I don’t remember Lennox taking 2 years off, because he was busy cleaning out the entire division! This Fury over hyping has got to stop.

 

None of them were technically journeyman in their primes as all of them at minimum challenged for world titles. I consider Puritty to be a true journeyman as he never did, though he beat Wlad (which also doesn't make him a better fighter than Chisora or Whyte). I don't think J. Ruiz or Maskaev would have any more success than say Whyte in this era, even though they beat prime Rahman, who was pretty green (8 years of boxing experience) when he beat Lewis.

Smaller men tend to be more co-ordinated, faster, more agile, fitter etc. than bigger men. If Usyk were 6'8, 265 lbs he would be less fast, agile and well co-ordinated than he is. The same is true of Usyk relative to Lomachenko; Usyk would beat him based on being bigger but Usyk's skills in a P4P sense are still very comparable. It's abstract and hard to know (especially without them fighting yet) whether Usyk or Fury is more skilled for their size but there's little doubt that Fury is the most skilled heavyweight there's ever been at his size.

 

We're talking about different things. Lewis was, like Wlad, more consistent than Fury. Wlad would never go off the rails like Fury either. But Fury was clearly mentally stronger than Wlad in the ring and in the buildup.

Lewis's reaction to the robbery draw with Holyfield compared to Fury's reaction to the robbery draw with Wilder says a lot here:

Lewis comes to pointfight again for 12 rounds (having a much closer fight 2nd time) despite being much taller, much longer, much heavier and much more powerful, with the the opponent's ex-trainer in his corner, against an opponent who'd been defeated three times and KO'd 4 years prior. Lewis said why he was so cautious against Holyfield: concerns about his chin and gas tank. He lacked the confidence to take the fight out of the hands of the American judges who had denied him the first time.

Fury comes back from being dropped twice and almost KO'd to take the fight to one of the hardest punchers ever, who has similar height and reach, a big advantage in one punch power and is undefeated. This is despite the conventional wisdom being that Fury gaining 16.5 lbs and attacking Wilder was suicidal, likely to end in a devastating early KO defeat. And Fury was coming off a war with Wallin where the cut was seen as a big liability.

If people weren't so emotionally biased in favour of Lewis they would see the obvious truth here.

 

That was a tactical move because wilder cannot fight going backwards.

Holyfield is also ten times the boxer that Wilder will ever be.

 

This is a brilliant description of his "breakdown".

 

What a lame reply.

Holyfield was about to go 1-1-1 with John Ruiz. Compared to Wilder, Holyfield was a light puncher and 5 inches shorter, with 5.5 inches less reach. He'd been KO'd by Bowe 4 years prior and beaten by Moorer. Lewis even had Holyfield's ex-trainer. And given his massive advantages in size and power he boxed like a p*ssy, hoping the judges would be fair to him this time, in a much closer fight. Because he was worried about his chin and engine failing him.

Dishonest boxing fans will also claim that 24-5 crackhead McCall and greenhorn Rahman were better than Wilder in order to diminish Fury. It's laughable.

Given the context that I discussed in the comment above, Fury showed ten times the amount of heart that Lewis did, who was regarded as being "overly cautious" (cowardly/lacking heart). It's not disputable by any reasonable person that Wilder-Fury 2 was a far more gutsy performance than Holyfield-Lewis 2.

People with massive experience in the game know that Wilder is an excellent heavyweight and extremely dangerous. He's fought well on the backfoot and landed big shots in many fights (Szpilka counter, Ortiz 1 counter, Breazeale, Helenius), he's primarily a backfoot fighter.

“There’s one kid in America that no one speaks of and that’s Deontay Wilder. He was on the Olympic team, big kid, and I have had the fortune of training with him. He is a big kid, he’s bigger than Wladimir too. But he’s got good speed and power and I think the best talent is still going to be Tyson and Deontay Wilder.” - Emmanuel Steward, 2012

“Wilder is the hardest puncher I’ve ever been in with (including Lewis and Wlad).” - Jameel McCline, 2013

“Who would you rather fight: Joshua or Wilder?”

"Oh, man, that’s easy – Anthony Joshua. For my style, he would have been my choice."

"Deontay Wilder is the scariest heavyweight ever. Not the best ever, the scariest ever. I’d rather fight Mike Tyson than Deontay Wilder, easy. It’s the style matchup, the kid is super long.” - Chris Byrd, 2018

“It would be a dangerous fight for Joshua. I’m not saying he wouldn’t win it but Wilder has something. Due to his weight, he is extremely fast. He has good power in his hands and he’s extremely fast. Maybe he’s kind of wild in his technique but those punches are coming from who knows where. He is hard to defend against: where is that punch going to land and which side is it coming from? Joshua has all-around more capability but Wilder is taller than Joshua and is faster than Joshua. He doesn’t have the weight behind his punches but he is extremely fast, and it would depend upon what kind of mood both fighters were in.” - W. Klitschko, 2018

“A lot of people say Deontay can’t box, that he’s sloppy. Don’t get it twisted, he can box. He hasn’t had to box, because once that right hand lands, you’re out.” - Steve Cunningham, 2018