Felix Trinidad or James Toney?

I agree i think people are slightly underselling Toney in this thread.

Toney's KO win over P4P number 3 Nunn, is better than Trinidad's heavily disputed win over ODLH which many thought ODLH won.

Toney's stoppage win over Holyfield taking into context it's only time Holyfield was stopped whilst being healthy, and the fact it took place at Heavyweight, is better than Trinidad beating a past it Whitaker.

For me Toney edges it based on his P4P feats at higher weightclasses.

 

@NoNeck and @Dynamicpuncher - I do take your points on Toney. I’m a big Toney fan so I don’t have an axe to grind.

Reflecting a little more on it, the case is probably closer than I made out in my first post but I’d still take Tito. Partly, that’s because I do think consistency and dominance are important. When you look at individual wins, it seems closer and you can make a stronger case for Toney here but he was such an inconsistent performer, even during his prime.

His excellent win over Nunn was followed by an admittedly tough defense against Reggie Johnson which he barely escaped with the title. In fairness, with hindsight that’s a good win too. Then he got the better of the draw with McCallum but then followed that up with a listless performance against Tiberi. I thought the scoring in the second McCallum fight was generous to Toney. He didn’t fight as well as he had in the first one.

Then you have his super middle reign where he showed the most consistent output of his career, albeit for a relatively short window. He looked great against an admittedly made-to-measure Barkley and against Charles Williams and Tim Littles, but then had the Jones fight and showed indifferent form for the better part of the decade before the resurgence against Jirov and Holyfield.

So, win for win, his case is stronger but I think Tito was more dominant for longer and was a much more consistent performer as well - to my mind, that’s harder to achieve, but I realise it’s arguable.

 

you pound on the Tiberi fight but forget that Toney also had controversial losses like against Peter I. I think with what Toney did at heayweight as a former middlweight, that is clearly harder to achieve.Without the heavyweight pass, a case could have been made for Tito.

 

Tito was ranked behind Whitaker and/or Oscar for years at 147 and the vast majority of people had him losing to Oscar. At any rate he certainly didn't stamp himself above him and that takes some gloss off his 147 run. Toney scaled the heights better but he had some lows too. It's somewhat closer than i thought.

 

Tito also didn't fight the likes of Mosley, Quartey, and as you said most people had him losing to ODLH. So I'm not sure he was ever really considered the number 1 man, where as Toney was pretty much recognized as the number 1 after he beat Nunn at Middleweight, and then was recognized as number 1 at Super Middleweight until Jones beat him.

For me I think Toney edges it based on his P4P achievements at the higher weightclasses. And looked more impressive overall against their best opposition, like I said Toney KO over Nunn -----> Trinidad controversial win over ODLH

 

I'm probably inclined to agree.

@McGrain @Tin_Ribs @George Crowcroft @roughdiamond

Does the diamond man even exist anymore?

 

Blimey that's calling in the calvary mate, I'll be a bit out my depth if they disagree me.

 

Yeah i know that was wondering if he's ever back or even looking.

 

Ha!!! Only calling them in for their opinion. They are sure not the worst list makers and if they all happened to align........

 

There are plenty of guys who I'd rank ahead of Toney, but I don't think Tito did well enough.

With Tito, it feels like none of the guys he fought really panned out. Campas, Carr, Reid, Joppy, and Vargas all seemed to have potential but turned out not be great. Whitaker was flat and I thought Oscar won. I think Toney's cruiser and heavy run puts him ahead.

 

As I said what Toney did as heavweight as a former middleweight makes the difference.

 

He's under an immense drug cloud at heavyweight. Not good.

 

He also fought with pituitary atrophy from being hit too much in the head and had screwed up hormone levels as a result, basically PEDs in reverse.

 

Well that makes it all OK