Felix Trinidad or James Toney?

So it’s okay to assume he was on PEDs for all of those fights that he passed the tests for?

 

Would you put your life on it that he wasn't? Would you put your life on it that every Olympian in recent history that passed tests was pure?

So it's ok to pound the roids if Dr Neck diagnoses you with pituitary atrophy?

What indisputable proof do you want to put forward that he had pituitary atrophy from being hit too much in the head??? I'll wait.

Also, and this is a very simple yes or no answer, does previous reliance on steroids potentially lead to low testerone levels when off them i.e. does previous steroid use slow down your natural production of testerone?

 

Hard call. Toney is the more skillful fighter while Trinidad showed more dominance in one weight class before moving up.

I pick Trinidad but it’s close.

 

Wait no further:

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You can apologize now and we can be done with it.

BTW the test for the Ruiz fight was from steroids that he was prescribed while rehabbing a torn biceps.

I’ll also add that only a complete moron would think that Toney’s brain was in pristine shape for the second half of his career.

 

There's a couple of questions you haven't answered bud.

 

To answer one of your questions, previous reliance on steroids does not lead to low growth hormone that I know of.

Would you like to comment on how Tito’s career turned to dog**** from the moment it was discovered that he used illegal hand wraps? How about the fight altering low blows in the Vargas fight? How do you think it would feel to get nailed in the testicles from a hand transformed by rock solid wraps?

 

Tito wraps story is a big nothing. More a technicality. Oscar got “caught” with it in NJ. Vargas was probably juiced vs. Tito too.

“First I would like to say that my deputy commissioner and my commissioner did a diligent job that night. The rules are clear and fair. Mr.Trinidad did not violate the rules, that's why there was no suspension. Extra tape and gauze can be applied if the trainers agree and the commission approves, grounds for that will be protection only cause of injury. Under no circumstances can there be double layers of tape,which in this case there was none. The New York State bylaws say you cannot have tape on skin so the commission made them rewrap because of that fact alone." (NY State Athletic Commission Chair Melvina Lathan)


"Felix "Tito" Trinidad has fought here several times against some of thebiggest fighters in the world: Oscar de la Hoya, David Reid, Fernando Vargas. He's always had opponents' cornerpeople watching him wrap, as well as my inspectors. We have neverdetected anything illegal." (Executive Director of The Nevada State Athletic Commission Marc Ratner)

BRC: I want to talk about Steve Kim's infamous "Cheat-o Tito" article. Let's start out with what happened in Tito's dressing room. Can you tell me what happened there?

JFISHER: For all the fans that don't know the procedure of a championship bout, or any bout, before a fighter can have his hands wrapped, a representative from the opposing camp has to be in the dressing room. When they came to our dressing room and asked for a representative, myself and brother Nazim Richardson, who is a second in Bernard's corner, went over to Tito's dressing room. When we got there, one of his hands was already wrapped...

BRC: Do you remember which one?

JFISHER: I think it was his left hand, it was already wrapped and Tito's dad didn't want to take the wrap off. TheCommission's representative didn't want us to make him take the wrap off, he said it was okay, but that's not the rules, he had to take the wrap off.

We debated back and forth for like an hour and they finally had to call theChief Inspector for the New York State Athletic Commission and when hecame, he told them what the rules were, which they already knew, andthey cut Tito's wraps off. Then, they started wrapping his hand again, and there was a controversy on the way he (Trinidad Sr.) was wrapping Tito, as far as the use of the tape and gauze. That's when they called my dad, and they were going back and forth on the proper way to wrap hands, and the Commission agreed with my dad that you had to wrap the handswith the gauze and the tape, not too much padding on the knuckles... a lot of little technical things that had to be changed.Changes were made and the fight went on. But there was never an issue where anyone in Bernard Hopkins' camp thought theTrinidads were cheating.

It's just that it's not their job, you know... To enforce them taking thehand wraps off; the Commission, the guy that was inspecting, he shouldhave never even let them start, but he did, and he was like, being unfair, you know.


BRC: Well, James, I want to thank your for your time, your kindness, and your candor. I know it's not easy to go against the tide and we have gone against the tide a bit here tonite....

JFISHER: Well, you just have to be honest, and I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to let, not only the Puerto Rican fans hear this, but I want the Trinidads to hear that the Fishers, along with Bernard Hopkins, have no problem with them, specially when it comes to the hand wraps,cheating and all that. We neverthought Tito was cheating.“

That’s people who saw his hand wraps and never saw anything so why would you give a convicted PED user who served a global suspension a pass and say he was definitely clear every other time but then because of a technicality in a state where things are different and hence no suspension the hand wrap was always an issue?

Is it possible you are sometimes biased?

 

no it was because of medication from injury

 

A hard one, Toney was more skilled and probably achieved more but Tito was more consistent and dominant

 

It’s kind of hard to dominate the second half of the 90s at welter with no wins over Lopez, Page, Quartey, and Oscar (in most people’s eyes).

 

Those picking Tito are either huge fans, or believe (like me) Toney underachieved as talented as he was.

 

I'd have to sit down a bit more at length to get a clearer idea in my head. First instinct like others have said is that it's close. Greater skill and high wins vs dominance and consistency. Both with pronounced strong points and also stylistic weaknesses and an established comfort zone that they tried not to leave more often than not.

A few random thoughts. The way Trinidad ****ed up Blocker doesn't get enough credit sometimes. He was a really solid champion albeit past his best, but I reckon he could have held onto the belt for a fair bit longer if he'd been matched right. Tito proper obliterated him. The same against Joppy, though I don't rate Joppy as a fighter really.

I've come round to the idea in recent years that the DLH fight was just close rather than a robbery and that there's nothing wrong with a close card for Tito, especially with Oscar's best impression of Lance Armstrong in the closing rounds.

That said, the soft fights that Tito took between 95 and 98ish at the expense of some of the stronger contenders was a bit pish and partially contributed to him stagnating a bit imo. And great fight though the Vargas bout was with Tito being mostly in control up to the stoppage, I can't see a similar sized version of Toney fully focused and on point allowing a Vargas level/style fighter to be in the fight as much as was against Tito. Would've been a Barkleyesque beatdown.

Toney beating McCallum, Nunn and Jirov high tops Tito's best wins. But Tito would never have struggled imo with someone like Tiberi or lose to a Drake Thadzi. Swings and roundabouts.

 

Toney's doctor didn't prescribe any steroids. As a matter of fact he said he wasn't surprised by the positive test.

Tony first said he took no drugs.

Goosen then said he took pregnenolone and tried to claim it likely metabolized into nandrolone.

Who claimed Toney's brain was in pristine shape for the second half of his career? The little voice on your shoulder? Tell him he's a moron.

Toney said his low testosterone count problem was caused by medication he took prior to the Ruiz fight. Your video speculates and is by no means conclusive even if it seems likely.

So it certainly looks, swims and quacks like a duck.

 

Of course it was.

 

Both were absolutely great fighters ... Tito accomplished far more at his prime weight ... he never lost at 147, defended the title over a dozen times, destroyed some very good fighters like Blocker, Vargas and Reid and gave De La Hoya his first pro loss .. being better at their best , P4P, I still pick Toney but it's close ...