Felix Trinidad or James Toney?

By those standards, it would only be fair to then discuss the much more one sided losses to Hopkins and Wright

 

For whatever it is worth, in Rummy's top 25 boxers by decade thread, I had Toney #5 & Trinidad #7 in the 90's, based solely on fights in that decade.

Neither had the depth of wins to make my top 25 for 2000-09, though as an ex MW, Toney's wins over Jirov, Holyfield, Guinn & Oquendo, allied with a draw vs Rahman and a pair of close fights with Peter, probably just edge Felix's over Vargas & Joppy, imo.

 

This is a difficult question! They are both around the same level for me, but I'd go with Toney.

 

Why would you say it’s doubtful I watched them? Toney is one of my all-time favorite fighters. He like him a lot as a fighter and person.

I think the Johnson fight was razor thin. Toney edged it on my card by a point. I think 1-1 would be fair with Griffin but they were very close fights. The Thadzi one I felt was a fair decision. I had James down by a few rounds. He looked off.

 

It’s not even close for me.

James ranks higher.

He had more technical ability, and he has the better group of wins.

So: A better fighter, with a better resume.

 

It was a certified doctor making that observation but i'm sure your eyes are better.

To accuse me of trying to favor Trinidad to make Hopkins look better just shows how off your head you are about your boy Toney. To think, you accused me a while back of overrating Hopkins and picking him all the time. What a joke. Your nuthugging of Toney is comparable to any I've ever seen on the forum including Tyson fans.

You get so emotional in Toney discussions you can't even read what is being written. I had three or four goes trying to explain how Toney's surgeon didn't prescribe him any steroids or drugs that would have led to a positive test and here you are still trying to pretend it wasn't said.

Now I've been here a long time so please provide posts where i have big upped Trinidad trying to make Hopkins look better. Provide posts where i have said what a great win it was over Trinidad. You simply won't be able to because I've never done it.....except in your own head.

Even stranger is that you accuse me of trying to favor Trinidad in this thread. You are simply lying. Anyone can go back and read my posts in here. I was actually the one to cast a bit of shade on Trinidad's welterweight reign. I then agreed with DP when he said he thinks Toney edges it! When i said it's closer than i thought it was because i thought Toney would be the runaway winner. Did you use the word "pathetic" at one point? It's certainly applicable at this point.

I also didn't specifically bring up the Ruiz fight. I said he was under an immense drug cloud at Heavyweight, and guess what? He is. He literally tested positive for nandrolone. I have provided quotes showing his surgeon didn't prescribe it when the likes of yourself have been claiming just that. I'm pathetic? You are continually imagining and/or claiming things that just aren't happening and I've just provided plenty of proof to that.

Let's look at you and Toney. You've been butthurt since the thread began and Trinidad garnered surprising support. You've accused one of the most respected posters in here of not watching a couple of Toney fights because he didn't think Toney won or that they were close. Incredible really. Of course you score every close fight Toney ever had for Toney and some that were not even close i bet.

You are in the Toney - Calze thread claiming Toney had faster hands and telling us if Calze had trouble with an old Hopkins he ain't beating Toney. Calze was in the second last fight of his career and was clearly not peak. This is after you told a guy you always expect peak for peak when they mentioned Toney's inconsistency. Concessions for Toney but sure not poor old Calze, or anyone pitched against Toney for that matter. I'm pretty sure i saw you claim Toney would beat Usyk at cruiserweight just the other day LOL. You're also in there casting shade on the early Calze picks by claiming there's a lot of British fans in here leading to Calze getting overrated.

If you're going to come hollering into my backyard you'd best check your own first.

Also envisioning Trinidad at cruiserweight has nothing to do with anything. Hagler and Monzon are rated way above Toney and neither left their own division.

 

Who is getting emotional now? I did not like that you are singling out the Ruiz fight to downplay Toney's run at heavyweight. I do not think that is fair. And leaving out the positive test in the Ruiz fight, Toney had other fights at heavyweight where he did not test positive. If you want to go with facts, then stick with facts.

Yeah Toney as a former middleweight had faster hands than Joe.

This poster brought up Toney's losses but did not mention they were controversial. I actually watched these fights at the time. It is not enough to go to boxrec. This poster did not mention Tito's one sided losses in his prime and in shape to Hopkins and Wright. That is overall not a fair assessment.

Then you are applying two standards. How do you think Tito would do at cruiserweight? This is merely to point out that very few fighter can do what Toney did as a 5ft10 former middleweight at heavyweight.

I am a big fan of Tito. And I think it is close between the two and a case can be made for Tito leaving side Toney's heavyweight run which makes the difference between the 2. That is why you obviously try to downgrade that.

 

I am detached rest assured. Even at this point are you able to admit Toney's surgeon did not prescribe steroids? I said the positive test put a cloud over him at Heavyweight and it did. Holyfield never tested positive and nor did Jones.....do you think they never used? I didn't say he was definitely on roids every fight but again, it's a bit cloudy.

Weight isn't everything tho. As a former middleweight did he have faster hands than Patterson, Ali and Tyson?

This would make an ok thread i reckon.

He doesn't have to and cannot mention every angle for heaven's sake. I could pluck multiple posts of yours from the last few days where you just plump Toney and don't mention the other guy and of course the one where you said if Calze can't beat a 40 whatever years old Hopkins he won't beat Toney or words to that effect. You certainly had no words about Calze being well past peak and in the second last fight of his career. You're just waving the pom poms really.

The poster most certainly watched the fights. To think he didn't is just silly.

You have totally missed my point.

You just don't read and comprehend at all do you. I've already stated i side with Toney (twice now) yet here you are literally accusing me of downgrading Toney's run at heavyweight because it is the difference between the two. It's just insane, bizarre, inexcusable. You also haven't found anything about me big upping Hopkins win over Trinidad, saying what a great win it was etc. If you make such false accusation you are gonna have to expect me to be a bit reactive. The same goes for the the whole statement i just quoted and am referring to. I'm being more than fair IMO.

So....

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You can concentrate on converting the true naysayers that are plugging Trinidad now. I'm in your congregation.

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Toney starts off fast, floors Tito hard in the 4th round. Tito gets up, slams a couple of left hooks into Toney's nuts that double him over and take all the fight out of him. Tito is not penalized for the low blows and comes on against an impaired Toney and stops him late