Felix Trinidad v Alan Minter

We will just have to disagree on this one :good

Khaosai galaxy rules

 

Some fair points here imo, but also some slight misconceptions too, if I may say so.

Of his 8 stoppage losses one was the end of career ko by Sibbo, another was the loss to Hagler, but the other 6 were considerably earlier in his career. Mazel Harris cut him to ribbons but suffered a fractured jaw & Minter was coming on strong: he was butted by Tonna; the others were when Minter was greener, less composed, more hot tempered and tended to rush in when tagged and get cut. The tendency to rush in sibsided as he matured as a pro.

I also think that Minter's power is underrated here, he scored some spectacular kayoes & clearly wobbled the iron chinned Hamsho when past his own peak. He also wobbled Vito badly in their rematch.

Euro level fighters? Tonna, Finnegan, Antuofermo & Seales were at least 4 world class fighters that Minter beat.

 

I've got to disagree with my man Flea on this one.Tito was definitely a better, more patient and versatile boxer-puncher earlier in his Welter reign, though even by the second half of it the bad habits were setting in.

Eearlier in his career he was more Arguello like, had a better use of basic angles, took his time behind the jab and picked a variety of quality punches.If he ever really did look like a great fighter, it was in those early bouts against Carr, shot-post Norris beating Blocker etc

Over time he slowly devolved into a straight line, load up on the left or right kind of fighter.His durability is also suspect to me at 154 and 160, after getting hurt by a pretty average 154 puncher, he needed to repeatedly foul Vargas to stop him coming on in the mid-rounds, despite having him so badly hurt early on.imo Welter Tito stops Vargas early, with his greater punch variety and punch picking not letting Fernando back into the fight.

Then when Hopkins finally felt he he had drawn enough sting and frustration from Tito circa 9\10 and started genuinely putting hard punches together, Tito crumbled swiftly.It was clear in hindsight that Hopkins played it overly safe for the first two-thirds and i'm sure if they had an immediate rematch, he opens up more and does more of a number on him for a stoppage circa 5-8.

Tito definitely carried his power to 160 and was legit there, and still a dangerous mofo, but Joppy was imo a mediocre fighter....one that stood right in front of Tito and traded with absolutely no defensive nous, offensive imagination and a lack of power.He was always just a volume guy with some flashy, but ineffective combinations.

Minter had his flaws and at the time was one of the weaker middle champs there had been, but he was still imo a very good fighter at 160.

Very good chin, good technical offensive skills with a vicious straight left, good outfighter with an educated right hand.Plenty of stamina and *****, comfortable getting hit and trading.At his best against methodical textbook fighters, which Tito certainly was and would come right at him in a straight line consistently.

Not a strong consistent ring-general, but it was usually awkward, difficult to predict swarming types, or skilled cuties that could draw the brawler out in him, not a fighter like Tito.Average defence(though clearly better than Tito's) and not much of an infighter.Cut prone.

I think it's likely both would look to establish the jab initially and Minter would get the better of the fencing over the first couple of rounds.From there i can see it going a few ways...

1. Minter keeps an edge in the fencing, but gets cut early in slightly more protracted exchanges and gets stopped circa 5-10 on cuts in a fight where it clearly hampers him, but Tito can't unload enough to realy take charge due to Minter's own offensive ability.Fight is unconclusive and very close at time of stoppage.Both take a similar amount of punishment, but Tito rocked a few times more or possibly dropped.

2. Similar start, but Minter loses cool after cuts, hurting\dropping Tito early, or getting tagged with a big hook and fight turns into a shootout.Great fight with Tito's durability coming into play when he gets laid out Kingpetch\Ebihara style after a few back and forth rounds.

3.Minter keeps focused, turns Tito throughout and eventually stops him circa 5-10 or wins a decision in a competitive fight where Trinidad's lesser defence, footwork,durability and at this stage in his career; Jabbing and punchpicking, see him stay mostly a step behind.A heavy early knockdown, or bad wobble or two keeps him honest.

4.The opposite occurs in terms of who i think takes each other's punches better, and Tito is able to march forward and grind away at Minter-who doesn't let his hands go enough-landing enough powershots via Minter's tendency to be too aggressive when he does exchange and average defence, that he gets a late stoppage, cuts win while ahead or competitive decision win.

5.Tito takes Minter's punches better and wins in a similar shootout scenario to the one highlighted earlier.Minter too aggressive, abandons outfighting skills and possibly with vision hampered via cuts.

Regardless of what happens i think this would almost certainly be at least a very good fight, quite likely a great one.

 

Great post Lora, the sort of technical breakdown I come to ESN to read.

Overall, I think your option 3 is most likely, the cooler, more mature Minter could implement this & I would very much doubt if Tito is as durable as Boom Boom was at 160.

 

I wouldn't call beating Waters, 14 fight Reid, Thiam, and Vargas, earth shattering stuff at 154, and I certainly wouldn't call beating Joppy, and Mayorga, but losing to Hopkins and Wright at 160 fairing well.

 

Mentioning his fight with Winky is moot.. Felix was on the ass end of his career and had seen only one fight in a 3 year period leading up to it. Hopkins was an ATG middleweight in his prime and in the midst of one of the most dominant reigns ever in boxing. Those losses mean virtually nothing to me when ascertaining what Minter might do to him. That " 14 fight Reid" was a well accomplished amateur, world title holder, and had been fighting quality comp since his debut. Joppy was a long reigning belt holder who was never stopped and avenged the only defeat he had to that point. Trinidad stopped him earlier than anyone else ever would. He was coming out of a two and a half year retirement when he stopped the dangerous Myorga. The last man to prevent Ricardo from seeing the final bell was in his debut.. Felix could hurt middleweights and had plenty of speed and skill to compensate for size.. Against a man who stood strait up and cut as easily as Minter did, I'd give him a real edge.

 

Whenever Trinidad faced men of his size and frame he didn't fare well at all, he lost to De La Hoya but got a gift, he was blasted by Hopkins, who took him to school in a fight that wasn't even close, and had to go thru hell and high water against Vargas in a fight he was knocked off his feet a few times and almost lost, he can beat the Hector Camacho's all day long, but put him in the ring with a natural 160 guy who's a talent of Minter, (southpaw to boot) and Tito is dead in the water...

Mayorga was no Minter, Mayorga was better at bumping his chops than beating World class guy's...

Trinidad was a supreme fighter but NOT AT 160...:-(

 

Great to see you posting properly again.

I see your points, as always, but Tito appeared more robust at 154, and although he was more straight on and straight up post-welter, he was essentially a more streamlined version of himself IMO.

It worked well. I don't think it was necessarily a worse version.

 

Anyone can say anything is a moot point if it doesn't suit their own agenda. Fact is 7 months previously Tito had stopped Mayorga, but he made no impression on Winky whatsoever, who himself was making his 160 debut. Regarding Hopkins I don't care how much of an ATG he was, fact is again he made no impression at all on a full blown decent Middle being far behind on all cards at the point of stoppage.

That tells me that Minter can manhandle Trinidad, and all he'd have to worry about was cuts. I'd put plenty of money on Minter to spark him inside 2 rounds. Minter is NO Kevin Leushing. Once he puts the naturally weaker Tito down, he's staying there. Just like Hopkins did when he finally decided to plant his feet and hit him.

 

Thanks flea.

It's the durability and physicality that bothers me regarding Tito fighting in the more seek and destroy manner he had adopted.

I think he probably does as well with it at welter as he does fighting like he did early on(and we can see good performances with both approaches there)...let's face it Tito ain't going to be beating many great fighters by outboxing and slick punchpicking anyway.He's overall imposing physically here, despite the knockdowns and sometimes stiff, shaky looking legs if backed up.

But against middleweights, i think he's going to have a hard time rolling over durable and hard punching world class foes.Loads of tough great fights for him there imo.

 

If disregarding the fact that a man was basically semi-retired and only beating one opponent ( who was totally dissimilar to winky ) in a three year period isn't agenda setting then I don't know what is..

Neither man was prime and neither were naturals at 160. The tie breaker is that Ronald had been active leading up to their meeting.. Tito hand't. Kinda simple really.

You certainly have a knack for over looking prudent points.

Because one of the most dominant middlweight champions of all time did it, and did it not by "man handling" him but merely outclassing him, something that Minter couldn't come close to doing?

Given that he was stopped via cuts on no less than SIX occasions in his career and at times by lesser men than Tito, I'd say that's a legitimate concern. But you can brush it aside like you have with any other relevant point thus far mentioned.


I'd put plenty of money on Minter to spark him inside 2 rounds. Minter is NO Kevin Leushing. Once he puts the naturally weaker Tito down, he's staying there. [/QUOTE]

If it were at all possible to make such a bet I'd take you up on it in a heart beat. An ATG welter/middle who was stopped only once in the 12th round of a fight with one of the best middles of all time, losing to an average titlist like Minter in two?? That would be easy money...

 

Trinidad was never an ATG, unless we mean in the hype department.He was an excellent\arguably great Welter and a very good, but clearly limited fighter above that.

Putting any debate over his inherent ability aside, he needed a strong clear win and showing over Oscar to be seen as an All-time welter imo....what we got was a **** fight that seemed to back up the idea of both being thoroughly overhyped at the time(fight of the century).

Then he got horribly outclassed by the only genuine great he fought above that weight and promptly retired.That would be unlikely to happen to someone who genuinely WAS an all-time sort of fighter.

 

That said, stating he'd get sparked in two rounds is pretty over the top.Could happen(to Minter as well), but highly unlikely.

I've got to say, in retrospect the hype machine that went into overdrive after Tito moved up in weight from Welter was among the more ridiculous i've seen since i started following boxing.

You would have thought opinions would be more muted and there would be more of a "wait and see" attitude after how limited he was made to look by DLH....yet many fans seemed to willfully put their head in the sand as to the clear flaws he was showing against Vargas and Reid.

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with those performances if you just see Tito as a really good fighter at the time, but there seemed to be a large element that wanted to state him a new prime Tyson-esque destroyer and significantly improved at the higher weight.

Then he had a more genuinely one-sided impressive performance against slopfest Joppy and the **** was everywhere.Ridiculous how many on boxing forums back then were more or less writing off Hopkins based on those wins.