I see alot of talk about how some fighters fought in worse eras than others and STYLES make FIGHTS (eg. Marciano.) What happens if we would put all of the all time greats in the same time frame and in their prime, who would be champ who would beat who ,who would have trouble , who would come up short or be an under or overachiever since different contenders are now available?
Very hard to say. I suspect that it would depend more upon who they got matched with than anything else.
I don't have time to answer all of the raised questions, but to briefly touch upon things, I think you'd have an era where there would be no dominant or long raining champion. If you had a top 10-15 heavyweight division packed with all time greats, the title would no doubt change hands often as whoever was defending it would constantly have a super elite challenger in front of him. nobody can stay on top for too long under those conditions. Men like Muhammad Ali, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield would probably account for the top 6-7 best of the bunch.. Guys like Foreman, Frazier, Bowe, W.klitscko, and Liston would run things from about 7-12 and might occasionally upset one of the top tier... Marciano, Patterson, Charles, Norton, etc. Would be considered your fringe types, as I think they would have vulnerabilities that would prevent them from cracking the upper echelon circle, but would still make for some great fights and serve as tough gate keepers making it hard for anyone else to get near the top 10. Every so often you'd have a non-great who was a head to head monster like Vitali Klitscko who would disrupt the holy circle and upset one of the greats, but probably fizzle in his next couple of fights. Men like Tim Witherspoon, Ingemar Johannson and Chris Byrd would be virtually unnoticed and actually be considered journeyman if that's even imaginable.
Magoo you put it all in a nut shell . So that being said the 70s were without question the true golden era for the big guys.
Ive recently reviewed the Holmes Tyson fight and by far between Holmes and Spinks ,Holmes put up a solid effort. A big factor being Spinks looked like he was about to **** himself and knew walking into the ring he had already lost .Holmes on the other didnt look scared at all which was impressive , he truly thought he had the skillset to beat Tyson that night. He mightve if he wouldve kept Tyson at the end of his jab or atleast made it the judges call. This fight is one of the best examples of IMO of eras crossing over . Holmes was I guess on the decline but was not fully washed .I wonder if Holmes was 5 years younger that story wouldve been different. Having that said I cant give credit to Holmes for beating Ali bc as we all know Ali was done and Ali wasnt beating anybody that night. So there would be another example of eras crossing over .Marciano vs Walcott or vs Louis seems to be the same scenario as Ali Holmes. Im not as well versed in older fights on here as you guys though and am just thinking of some obvious examples.
I agree with you about the 70s for heavies without a doubt. Ali,Foreman,Frazier et al. No other era has had anything like it.
I've always maintained that nobody would be unbeaten. Even the greatest could be beaten on a certain night by a certain fighter but on a league basis,I see Muhammad Ali getting more wins than anyone else.
Ali , Lewis and Holmes would adapt to find ways to win, I think Jersey Joe and Ezzard would be better regarded in those circumstances with skill and guile helping them. Overall in a talent pool that deep, I feel the intelligent guys, skilful guys and those with the best advice / trainers would profit, especially once the one-dimensional guys were beaten. I think Patterson and Johannson may suffer.
As intriguing a thread as this is, we'll never know because they all fought in different eras and there's no way to compare them. Of course a post-2000 Klit sprays Dempsey all over the ring! Does that really mean anything?
BACKGROUND: CH: Larry Holmes (Aged 27) 01: Joe Frazier (Aged 25) 02: Sonny Liston (Aged who knows, oooooooo) 03: George Foreman (Aged 24) 04: Lennox Lewis (Aged 34) 05: Evander Holyfield (Aged 29) 06: Joe Louis (Aged 24) 07: Mike Tyson (Aged 20) 08: Muhammad Ali (Aged 22) 09: Wladimir Klitschko (Aged 37) 10: Jack Johnson (Aged 30) #10 JACK JOHNSON, ranked #10 refuses to go away, and is widely regarded as the division's spoiler. Capable of beating anyone, Johnson lost a two fight series with Evander Holyfield nearly ten years ago going 1-0-1 in two close, scrapey fights. Knocked out in eight by Sonny Liston and then outpointed in a drab affair by Lennox Lewis. A shock KO victory over top contender Wladimir Klitschko kept him in the division's mix but after being outpointed by Jack Dempsey(Retired) he beat a series of green and journeyman types to keep his name in the papers before brutalising ancient former champion Jim Jeffries (Retired) restoring his ranking. Regarded with deep suspicion by promoters, fans and fellow professionals alike after a series of rumoured ***ual escapades at the extreme end of the scale including a supposedly torrid affair with Hilary Clinton and rumours of drug and alcohol abuse, as well as a gun charge that didn't stick and a charge of vehicular manslaughter that was thrown out. Recent unsavoury confrontations with Larry Holmes has led to a series of one-sided maulings of the champion by the contender, leading to a rumours of a title fight... #09 Wladimir Klitschko is perhaps the most intriguing member of the top ten, repeatedly knocked out in the previous decade by Jack Johnson, Sonny Liston (twice) and Joe Louis. Boxing a recent draw with Lennox Lewis got him back into the rankigns in combination with his domination of the European scene and a devastating knockout of a faded Harry Wills (retired). Generally regarded as extremely vulnerable he has been accused of ducking a money fight with bowling-ball contender Mike Tyson. Scheduled to face the unranked Ken Norton. #08 Muhammad Ali is lightning quick and holds a victory over former contender Jack Sharkey (KO8) and former champion Jim Jeffries (UD10). Ali is viewed with suspicion by former champ and Liston fight manager John Sullivan who named him "a god damn f*cking fairy" live on HBO. Ali has since stalked "The Ugly Bear" ruthlessly with an unimpressed Sonny Liston more than ready to accommodate him. Expected to fight later in the year, with many claiming Ali has talked his way into a shot against one of the leading contenders. #07 Mike Tyson is lighting up even this division, obliterating respected men like Tom Sharkey and Michael Spinks on his way to the top ten. Has ruthlessly pursued Wladimir Klitschko for a money fight in Europe or Vegas but seems less keen on a match with Jack Johnson (Favoured by the Unified Boxing Organisation) whom he appears to idolise, and who he has been repeatedly photographed with in various strip-clubs. The division is holding it's breath in respect of what Tyson will do next and is very much the talk of the town. Only Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali have spoken dismissively of Kid Dynamite. #06 Joe Louis used to be Mike Tyson with the addition of a knockout over a ranked fighter, namely Wladimir Klitschko. Louis has been seen by some as going backwards however and after a lacklustre 15 round decision over light-heavywight champion Gene Tunney and a very close call with Joe Walcott, some of the rub is seen as having been removed from the former divisional favourite's star. A summer confrontation with Evander Holyfield is seen as being the the night we find out once and for all. Handled by former contenders Joe Jennette and Max Schmeling. #05 Evander Holyfield was propelled into the rankings by dual victories over Jack Johnson after which he dethroned champion Jim Jeffries and ruled the division for five defences and three years before being unseated by current champ Larry Holmes after which he was out-pointed in a savage, brutal war with Joe Frazier. Generally regarded as being on the slide, Holyfield has banked each of the five biggest paydays in boxing history. Scheduled to box Joe Louis. #04 Lennox Lewis has been considered both an heir apparent and an overated mess after twice working his way to #1 contender status, once for Jim Jeffries, once for Evander Holyfield before being knocked cold by Sonny Liston and George Foreman respectively, having previously out-pointed Sony. But Lennox won't go away - a rematch with Foreman is planned for this calender year. #03 George Foreman brutalised his way to the top ten with absolutely no wins of real value on sheer physical presence and savagery. Victories over Ken Norton and an ancient Max Schmeling (Retired) propelled him to the #5 spot before a stunning one round knockout over Lewis brought him firmly into the title picture. A victory in this year's rematch would likely make him #1. #02 Sonny Liston was at one time the #1 contender to a supposedly intimidated Jim Jeffries before serving three years of a six year sentence for a **** he firmly denies. Beating up many of his old foes upon his release, he worked his way to the top of a better division that the one he both terrorised. Expected to dispatch Muhammad Ali later this year in something of a grudge match. #01 Joe Frazier has been named by some as the rightful champion having previously outpointed champion Larry Holmes over 10 and 15 rounds and having out-pointed former champion Holyfield in a more satisfying fight. For others, Holmes had not yet summited before his coming to the title. All will be revealed in the coming months as Holmes has been forced by UBO to defend his title versus Frazier in his next defence. Team Holmes will need to have their thinking caps on if they're going to solve the difficult Frazier style. CH: Larry Holmes - paper champ or fully fledge 215lb war machine? We'll soon know as Holmes is slated to take on nemesis Joe Frazier in what could become one of the truly classic trilogies for all time after two wars, the second of which especially was held to have damaged both men. Homles reportedly tried to avoid the rematch, but UBO rules are clear - the champion must face his #1 contender once in each calender year. Apparently brilliant, Holmes has been life-and-death in fights with both gatekeeper Ken Norton and supposed has-been Max Schmeling, whose punch-picking counter-punching style nearly brought him a knockout win in both the second and fourth rounds before he succumbed in ten. Schmeling's now infamous "i ze something" remark was widely disparaged at the time but he did underline the champion's apparent weaknesses - whilst simultaneously drawing attention to his deep well of reserves and heart. Frazier will have to be at his very best to lift the title.
Wow McGrain, You just posted a true jewel . Definitely exceeds the expectations of the the thread question , an unexpected birthday/christmas gift for me. Ive read your post three times already and can see the possibilities unfolding. Have you ever considered fictional writing because this is Good stuff !!!
