Fight of the Week #12: Leonard v. Hagler

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, Jan 7, 2019.



  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    You knew it was coming.

    I've never understood why so many people seem to regard this fight as a robbery, so I'm hoping that people can share with us which specific rounds they believe Hagler clearly won.

    Reminder: Nobody really cares about your opinion about this fight unless you back it up with round-by-round scoring or analysis.

     
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  2. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Oh yeah I knew this was coming sooner or later, and almost boycotted it....anyway against my better judgement I am going to rewatch and rescore it out of appreciation for the FOTW threads.

    Prior to doing so: I have scored it twice, once a draw and and once for Hagler....I will see if my thoughts are changed much on this as it has in the other threads?

    I think any card by 2-3 rounds for either guy will be reasonable (but I will chime in again after a rewatch, and see if I agree with myself lol)

    Prediction: Hagler fans won’t be too bad....but SRL supporters and detractors will be equally intolerable.
     
  3. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Half time (dinner break)- some initial thoughts although I will save my card for later....scoring with a slant or preference for one guy or the other or preferring one of thier two strategies, I can see having SRL up 4 or Hagler up 1 as reasonable, although my official card has neither score.

    The ring size (a recurring theme) looks to have an impact. Ray’s movement is brilliant (if not pleasing), as he utilized the ring and his superior hand and foot speed to both score his own shots and avoid Hagler’s is top notch. Hagler coming out orthodox for the first 2 rounds was not the best strategy in my mind. SRL almost gave away (maybe did on some cards?) the first by the brief switch to southpaw and a Hagler exchange. Hagler is stalking through 4, but not getting home consistently enough to take control. Ring size and lack of pressure along with SRL’s generalship and speed are preventing Hagler from having prolonged success. Hagler coming out in 3 southpaw, seemed to bring favorable results for him in contrast to the first 2 regardless of how you scored 3. Round 6 SRL looks a little (not sure?) tired? He is not moving as much as the first 5, although his hand speed helps him score some both when against the ropes and in the center of the ring. SRL is tying up effectively when Hagler gets in close, but not overly so. Good strategy of movement and tying to prevent Hagler from teeing off or having sustained success.

    Regardless of cards, SRL has implemented his strategy much more successfuly than Hagler thus far. Ray’s speed and darting in and away, and occasional tie ups have been a brilliant strategy. Hagler is chasing and forcing, but not pressing and catching SRL like he wants or needs to. Through the first 6 I have it close but will reveal my card at the end! Hopefully we get some more cards, rather than the meaningless I thought so so won or was robbed
     
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  4. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    To me Hagler let this fight go and Ray knew what Hagler had to win. He knew Hagler would think he was washed up and Ray took advantage of everything. Ray won being smart and Hagler lost taking for granted which is what Ray depended on.
     
  5. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well unless someone posts their card while I am typing I will have the misfortune usually reserved for @Pat M of being first....and first to get beat up lol.

    Anyway my card is 2 rounds for SRL and 2 rounds for Hagler and 8 rounds that will be contentious!!! Any score from 116-112 seem fair....perhaps even 117-111 although that seems a stretch??? The 118-110 card still ruins this fight for me, and along with the commentary and crowd make me feel like.....never mind lol.

    Round 1 SRL 10-9
    Round 2 SRL (SRL 20-18)
    Round 3 Hagler (SRL 29-28)
    Round 4 SRL (SRL 39-37)
    Round 5 Hagler (SRL 48-47)
    Round 6 SRL (SRL 58-56)
    Round 7 Hagler (SRL 67-66)
    Round 8 Hagler (76-76)
    Round 9 Hagler (Hagler 86-85)
    Round 10 Hagler (Hagler 96-94)
    Round 11 SRL (Hagler 105-104)
    Round 12 Hagler (Hagler 115-113)

    Hagler 115-113, but I wouldn’t call the verdict of an SD for Leonard a robbery....but the 118-110 card still makes me question the validity of whether or not Hagler would get a fair shake outside of a KO or domination (which this was not by either guy).

    I don’t want to fault SRL (like people do the DLH/Canelo), for a judges decision. SRL gave a classic brilliant performance and whether a fan or not you should be able to appreciate and enjoy his once in a generation skills, even though they were clearly in decline (as were Hagler’s)...

    At the very least I seem to be consistent in favoring the stalker/puncher over the slick flurry types in scoring other fights that were close. At the time I thought Ray had no shot. I didn’t think he won then, nor do I today....but he fought a brilliant plan and executed it better than Hagler regardless of how I scored it. I do favor Hagler’s punches over the flurries in the latter rounds as depicted on my card. Likewise I favor Leonard’s speed and generalship over Hagler in the early going!

    Both guys deserve tremendous respect inspire of the controversy.

    On a side note....round 9 was super exciting and makes rewatching it well worth your while.
     
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  6. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Do you have a scorecard, that will give credence to your post/opinion?
     
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  7. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    First...I think you are an SRL fan, so that might be a (small) part of it? If the 3rd card was 118-110 for Hagler would you still feel the same?

    2nd the many SRL fans and Hagler fans/SRL detractors make having a serious dialogue on this fight very diffficult...

    3rd and most important on my mind is the 118-110 card...had the cards been 116-112 I wouldn’t question it very much if at all, even though I have Hagler winning. I don’t think the verdict was unfair even if like most close fights will always have controversy....I think that one scorecard takes credibility away from a fair SRL victory and turns it into a controversial setup whereby Hagler was not getting a fair shake?

    Just my $0.02​
     
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  8. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    What makes you think I'm a SRL fan? I asked someone (Robert?) before and nobody ever got back to me on this. Is it because I thought the first Duran fight was very close and I'm skeptical about some of the post-fight excuses and exaggerations from the rematch? Does that make me a fan? I'm confused.
     
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  9. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I had a question mark? After so it was not a definitive conclusion rather my hypothesis based yes on the Duran/Leonard fight, your posts and threads on Duran’s condition going into fight 2, and the way you seem to defend criticisms that he recieved...perhaps I am wrong? Won’t be the first or the last time, of that I am fairly certain even if I am wrong on the above.

    I didn’t mean to critique or discredit your opinion on this fight, merely question if that might be one factor to the question I was responding to.

    No offense meant I assure you!
     
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  10. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I scored it years ago 115-113... I don't know where the round by round analysis is. That is ridiculous to ask for that. So discussing a fight has to have a round by round scorecard? Hagler fought dumb. Giving away the first 2 rounds.. And Ray stole some rounds at the end.. And in spurts. Rather dumb fight for Marvin. who was a great. I will do that. Whenever I watch a fight score it round by round and keep the results so I can talk about a fight.
     
  11. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not as ridiculous (no offense) as giving a superficial answer and entering a thread based upon “Rewatching/Rescoring” a fight and discussing the fairness and validity of the verdict without being willing to do either.
     
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  12. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    Not offended at all! Just sincerely curious how people reach such conclusions. I've written before that I don't find Leonard particularly likable or trustworthy, that I think he's overrated as a technician, and that I think Leonard v. Mayweather would be a very competitive matchup.

    Like I wrote a few weeks ago, I really think the people around here get accused of being Leonard fans mostly because they don't praise Duran or Hagler fully enough, not because they actually cheerlead Leonard.
     
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  13. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I remember it was 115-113... First 2 rounds won by Ray.. Even the 4th won by Ray.. three out of 4 won by Ray.. Marvin won the 6th.. Ray won the 9th. Hagler the 12th.. I am trying to remember by memory. Either way. I thought Ray won it, and it was Hagler's fault.. Even in the rounds he won his punches were not sharp.
     
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  14. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Had Hagler known what would happen he would have maybe had a tuneup like I always mention. Kinchen vs. Hagler at the end of 1986 would have sharpened him up.
     
  15. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don’t dispute a thing you just said. And my memory likely recalled the same thing. The one thing I needed a refresher on (perhaps you do as well?) was how close some rounds were, as well as little observations along the way.

    One difference I had was round 6. SRL was slower of foot in that round but his defense and hand speed were evident. I found it close but thought Ray took that one...also 12 is also close enough to warrant discussion. I also think Hagler took it but not decisive in anyway.

    On a side note I could see 1-2 both scored even although I also scored them both for Ray. They were also not active enough to be decisive Ray rounds imo
     

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