Fight of the Week #12: Leonard v. Hagler

No unforgiven voted for Hagler 117-113....

I messed up on the draw card....going back to edit it now! Thanks for picking it up!

@Unforgiven appologies for putting you down in the draw column

Also to PernellSweetPea for excluding you...fixed

 

Love it - great stuff @PhillyPhan69!

 

Hi guys, I watched the fight last night and I had exactly the same score as McGrain, I scored every round the same hahaha.
8-4 Leonard ( I wouldnt quibble with anyone who had it say 7-5 SRL or even a draw as it only takes two swing rounds to make an 8-4 fight a 6-6 draw ) and it was a bit better a fight than I remembered.

One has to remember that most experts and fans thought Hagler was going to smash Leonard so the simple fact Ray was competitive deffo gave him an advantage with the scoring as did the pro Leonard crowd. Judges are human after all.

Very much enjoying the discussion even if I disagree with the peeps who have Marvin winning. In the end Hagler had the last laugh from a fistic perspective as he retired at the right time and never copped the humiliating beatings Leonard did vs Camacho and Norris.

As a last comment Gil Clancy and Tim Ryan were not what I would call " fair and unbiased " commentators by any measure.

 

Open that second eye maybe

Dancing around the ring punctuated with lighting fast flurries while not getting countered isn't negative - it's skill and ability. Hagler was not good enough to cut off the ring when Leonard was fresh - this is the fact of the matter. If Leonard was running away and not throwing punches it would be another matter but the fact again is that Leonard threw and landed more punches than Hagler did in that first round.

You claimy i don't give Hagler any credit at all. I detailed every punch he threw, every offensive effort.

Turning things around, do you think you give Leonard credit? In a recent thread you did not even have him in your top 10 fighters of the 80's. Ring Magazine had him #1, a poll of boxing experts by KO also had him #1 as did many other lists. I don't think i've ever seen him worse than #2. It's unfathomable to have him outside the top 10.

Leonard had barely fought in years and had never been a middleweight yet only Hagler gets leeway? From memory Hagler was also the P4P #1 fighter in boxing and hadn't been beaten since Jesus was a boy.

Hagler should have been big enough, strong enough and skillful enough to do someone about any clinches lets be honest.

Anyway it's been enjoyable as usual and i will let you have the last post mate. I've pretty much got all i could across i think. We agree on just about everything one could agree on exept Leonard. We will ease you over that mental hurdle one day, might take a while tho

 

I was surprised I scored it a draw recently. It is very hard to get over the fact Ray was fighting for the first time in 3 years. Even now. It was a great performance and he did his homework.

 

As far as Hagler/Leonard goes, I think ones needs the mystical and esoteric third eye

There's very little in the round of note and nothing to distinguish one from the other. What each of us perceive to be either positive or negative seems to collectively align with that notion. My view is that neither impressed greatly for reasons already given and so, I give Leonard as much credit as I do Hagler (for round 1 of their fight).

As for the poll of top '80s fighters, I gave very good reasons for why Leonard didn't poll in my top-10 and I did argue that he might make the tail-end of such a list.

You should well know my criteria for rating the candidates of the decade, favored consistent achievement and recognition, throughout the end-to-end period. Examples of this would be Hagler's dominance of the Middleweight division; or, Holmes reign as Heavyweight, or Holyfield going going 22-0 and becoming undisputed Cruiserweight Champion.

As far as I am concerned, having an impressive couple of years in 80-81, followed by two retirements and a failed "return", in between, doesn't match the efforts and achievements of the 'grafters' of the decade. Leonard's late '80s showcase comeback, from my perspective, is a joke.

From '87 to '89, his record involves four bouts in three years; two, well past their best opponents; two disputed decisions and yet another two retirements.

The above reads like Duane Ford trying to explain away his Pacquiao/Bradley 1 card.


Anyway - Thanks for the last word. I'd agree that there's little else to convey on this crucible of a topic. I think lifetimes and then some might be in order for me to see this any other way than I do, right now, though. An eternal sticking point, I imagine - but no biggie, in the scheme of things.

Always a pleasure.

 

Ya I watched the 5th a couple times. Maybe another 5 years and I watch the fight again, a round or 2 might change or the 5th goes Even for me. I don't know what you mean by you using Jo's card as your compass?? But my card was 114-114, and yours was 117-113 Hagler. I think my card is more of a representation of the fight than yours. That's how close of fight it was for me

 

Overall, I do not think SRL did enough to take the title from Hagler, and my card reflects that. And if it wasn't SRL in the ring that night, I believe the title doesn't change hands. And SRL didn't deserve a draw against Hearns as well, imo. But I know this. You and I are on the same page with our criticisms of SRL. And although we are probably in the minority, that will never change for me.

 

The 5th round was Hagler's best of the fight.

 

This week if you mean as of Monday no .. I watched it on the 8th

 

Fixed

haha

 

1. Leonard 10-9
2. Leonard 20-18 (Leonard 10-9)
3. Leonard 30-27 (Leonard 10- 9)
4. Leonard 40-36 (Leonard 10-9)
5. Leonard 49-46 (Hagler 10-9)
6. Leonard 59-55 (Leonard 10-9)
7. Leonard 69-64 (Leonard 10-9)
8. Leonard 78-74 (Hagler 10-9)
9. Leonard 87-84 (Hagler 10-9)
10. Leonard 96-94 (Hagler 10-9)
11. Leonard 106-104 (Even 10-9)
12. Leonard 116-113 (Leonard 10-9)


Rounds 1-4, all close in there own ways, Hagler did good work in each but I think Leonard's activity won him these rounds, although 3 was probably the closest. Can see an argument either way there.

Round 5, Leonard looked good but Hagler clearly landed the better punches. His flurry near the end sealed a close round clearly.

Round 6, Leonard controlled the distance masterfully here, he landed good short combinations and used the jab to take the round. He did some nice flurries of the ropes, and flicked in and out of range. Hagler did land some good shots.

Round 7 Leonard for me took it with his activity and neither's punches seemed to hurt one another. Hagler's aggression made is close.

Round 8-10, Hagler clearly took them, his aggression and body shots clearly had an effect on Leonard. He won with smart pressure here, something he should've done from the start.

Round 11, even. Hagler did what he was doing well but Leonard started to box again and roll with shots. He made so close I can't pick between them, wouldn't argue either way.

Round 12, Leonard the last for me, he took the last round with his quick flurries and he landed a few good jabs. Pretty close one but I had it for SRL.

I had Leonard winning by 3 points, with 3 rounds being very easily flip flop (11,7,12) had you given them Hagler I could see the other way around.

 

Fugg this biased bullshiiit/opinions

you want something done right, you got to leave out the bias and stick to the evidence

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I was quite impressed with Leonard and his preparations for this fight but even with Angelo Dundee in his corner

combined with Hagler's poor performance (shot, unmotivated, bad strategy & bad dancing), he was still outscored and scoring is the name of the game!

I was quite kind however and only scored it 116 - 113 for Hagler, conqueror of Duran, hearns and comfortable points on points over Leonard, the supposedly faster, and better boxer

 

You know that this video is biased don't you? And if we're going off punch stats Leonard landed more punches, and threw less.