Fighter that lost to the same opponent twice

How would you argue Frazier was greater than Foreman?

I'm not being smart, I am just interested in the counter-position because try as I might, I cannot see any argument that has Frazier ahead of Foreman.

 

Frazier has one of if not the greatest singular wins in boxing history over Ali. That alone elevates him to the top of the totem pole.

 

Paq JMM
Ali Frazier

 

I think you may have this one wrong or misread the OP, unless you rank McLarnin higher than Ross p4p.

I rank the smaller Ross higher than McLarnin, who he beat twice and lost to once.

 

I agree Foreman would still be favoured over Fraizer if they were the same size.

That's one consideration only though, to determine who to rank higher p4p, which is what the OP asked.

A reasonable counter argument is that the smaller Frazier did better vs Ali than the bigger Foreman managed to do.

Styles make fights and it's possible for a fighter to beat another, due to a style advantage, who across the board is better than they are.

 

Here's mine. I'll start with a perspective I'm going to repeat, that peak (1969 to early 1970) Frazier would've defeated more of history's other HW Champions and greats than George, who was probably the physically strongest HW Champion ever, but also one of the slowest and easiest to hit. (I think Shavers and Max Baer might've killed Foreman for example, while Joe would've swarmed through the punching room Earnie and Maxie needed, like Jerry Quarry did early in that first round with Shavers. If JQ had gotten to Foreman before Ali did, then Muhammad would've dethroned Jerry, and JQ deserved a shot at George after JQ-Lyle and JQ-Shavers.)

I think a first time win by 1969 Joe over peak Foreman would've been very hard for Frazier, but like Patterson versus Johansson, I think the Smokin' Joe of Quarry I to Ellis I (prior to Frazier's ankle fracture) with Eddie Futch and Yank Durham in his corner would've adapted to rebound by evading George early to drown him in later rounds water. In their actual rematch, a badly overweight Frazier did a fine job of evading and getting out of tight spots through the first four rounds, even swelling up Foreman's right eye. For rematches, the 1969 version of Joe who had won over the Championship Distance in the Bonavena rematch probably would've come in at lighter and more mobile 199-203.

That's not to say George wins a first time meeting with a peak Frazier, who showed ridiculous heart in getting up over and over again in Kingston. The 1969 version would've been able to clear his head and recover far more quickly. If he could get past five rounds, Foreman might expend himself early trying to put Joe away.

Keep in mind that Frazier originally took up boxing as a teenager to lose weight. He was powerfully built, like a fire hydrant, a true HW from the get-go, as he pointed out to Jim Clash on camera when in his early 60's, and continually during his career. Reports state he weighed around 230-240 when he started working out, because his legs were getting too big to fit in his pants. No question he was a far more skilled boxer with much faster hands than George. Bugner stated that Smoke had the best chin of anybody he opposed during his career. Bugner could hit, and his battle with Frazier was a war. We see him in a swimsuit during the Superstars competition after losing the Title to Foreman, he might've been around 230 or 240 at that time, and doesn't look at all overweight.

Beyond that, I think peak Frazier (again, Joe was there for only three bouts, JQ I, the Ziggy blowout and Ellis I) would've defeated more of history's over HW Champions than the severely stamina compromised and wide open peak Foreman. (Young George never produced a KD beyond round five.) 1967 Ali and 1969 Frazier are two of my favorite choices for taking on pre wartime service Louis. The Bomber couldn't have gotten close enough to Ali to win a decision, and he didn't like to be crowded as Godoy crowded him. Louis did fine in Godoy II, but Frazier was a very different kettle of fish who actually reveled in close quarter combat. I think the Bomber would've crushed the wide open Foreman like he did other huge opponents who failed to stay away from him.

 

Harry told Gene after their final bout that Tunney had gotten too big and strong for him, but nobody disputes that the Windmill peaked during his torrid 45-0-0 1919 campaign with two good eyes. There was a wide consensus at the time that Harry also won their second bout, had Tunney going in the 15th round of their third go (although Gene was the clear winner over the distance), and the Cleveland Plains Dealer had Harry winning their fourth NWS match, 6-3-1. So Greb may have deserved to go 3-2 against Gene, and nearly pulled out a last round KO in their fourth meeting, so a near 4-1, all while Harry was past peak with one good eye, as Tunney was admittedly still years away from peaking.

How does 1919 Greb (who utterly dominated Brennan over the Championship Distance in Tulsa on the same day Dempsey peaked in Toledo) do against the version of Gene who produced his career peak in his 1928 finale against Heeney in a first time pairing, where Tunney doesn't yet know to target Harry's body? ("The fastest fighter I ever saw. Hell, Greb's faster than Benny Leonard!" - Jack Dempsey.)

This ought to be a topic of some contemplation, that Harry peaked on July 4, 1919. Nine years before Tunney peaked on July 26, 1928.

 

Not personally but many could argue Tyson and Holyfield

 

Even now, the footage of their bouts is surreal to me. Didn't matter if Greg was heavy or slim, he still gets taken out twice by a guy with a career losing record. Yet Page generated a lot of wins after Wills II, including Broad, Bonecrusher and Spoon.

For what it's worth, I also felt that George Chaplin deserved a clear UD both times over Page. The first time was in Louisville, an obviously hometown result. Even so, Greg only got a ten round MD. For their 12 round USBA Title rematch in Atlantic City, Butch Lewis was the promoter, yet Page still had to settle for an SD.

My introduction to Page was Chaplin I, so I never felt Greg was all that. But can anybody even suggest Mark Wells was good enough to defeat Page TWICE, let along STOP him BOTH times?

 

Prior to Willie's plane crash, does Sandy even compete with him? I'm talking about the Pep who fractured the durable Sal Bartolo's jaw with his right in unifying the WW Title, the only time in Bartolo's 97 bouts that he was ever counted out, and Bartolo's broken jaw got him hospitalized

There is some footage of a pre plane crash Pep from Willie's second bout with a previously drawn Jimmy McAllister, where he one punches McAllister with a textbook second round hook to the body. Joe "john garfield" Rein posted here that "Willie woulda sold his left nut for an eraser," but Pep correctly stated in a late life television interview that, "I could hurt you!" He conserved his hands in order to box frequently for pay, but 65 KOs makes it clear he was no Joey Archer or Maxie Rosenbloom. (I don't included Pastrano as being feather fisted, because that was a volitional choice for him. His two successful defenses were stoppages where he did load up with venom, carving up Peralta quickly. In the opening seconds, he also inflicted a cut on Terry Downs, then drove his challenger into a corner from mid ring with a left hook. He then bided his time with a mid ring rope a dope as the bigger man while the spirited Terry feistily expended himself before opening round 11 in successfully going for the kill. Downs was a small WW going against a former top five HW.)


Greb-Flowers. "Well, that's one fight I won if ever I won any." - Harry Greb after Flowers II.

 

First, I think Frazier would've defeated more of history's other HW Champions than the slow fisted Foreman. As wide open as George was, I think Shavers and Max Baer could've flattened him. George might not have gotten up from the bombs Lyle decked him with if Earnie had been the one unloading them. And the Larruper had 20 round summer desert heat stamina. Maxie could skip backwards like he did with Carnera, then when Foreman did close in, the Madcap one could abruptly unload one of those overhand rights he flattened Comiskey with from out of nowhere. Frazier, on the other hand, would've been swarming both the elder Baer brother and Shavers.

With the Louis of Godoy II, Frazier would be my preferred choice to tunnel inside. The Bomber didn't like to be crowded. Even Marciano didn't like it when Charles took away Rocky's punching room in their first bout. But Frazier reveled in close quarters combat. I don't see the Bomber having any issues nailing George, and Louis was competent enough on defense against a much slower adversary. (Galento decked him by actually beating him to the punch. Two Ton had ridiculously quick hands. Louis pulled back his elbow to throw his hook, then Tony went forward without telegraphing his own hook, sending Louis to the deck. I love the different angles of that exchange.)

Like Patterson over Ingo, I think peak 1969 Frazier likely drops a first time encounter to peak Foreman. (I don't think that's a given though, considering how Frazier kept getting up in Jamaica. A peak 1969 Frazier may have been able to clear his head sufficiently to recover and adapt between rounds one and two.) But with Futch and Durham strategizing, a still peak lighter Frazier weighing from 199-203 could take George into deeper water to drown him. Futch did strategize for their 1976 rematch, when an aging and arthritic Joe weighed a half pound more than Foreman. Yet, for four rounds, Frazier moved well, got out of tight spots, and even swelled up George's right eye with that hook. His hand speed was far greater than Foreman's.

Hand Foreman over to Frazier after Peralta II (when George would've been best prepared for going more rounds), and I'm not convinced Foreman wins that pairing if it takes place before the FOTC. (For me however, Frazier's absolute three fight peak ends with his ankle fracture after Ellis I, although he showed fine mobility in his final successful defense over Stander, utilizing the same angles previously applied with Chuvalo.)

In my opinion, George Foreman was the most physically powerful of the HW Champions (although a case can be made for Jeffries). But speed and stamina matter also. (Jeff would have serious advantages over George in these areas.) He repeatedly shoved back a heavily 'roided Morrison with casual ease. But George was also a wide open target, never produced a KD beyond round five when in his 20's, and I'm not sure of there was a slower handed HW Champion prior to the end of his final retirement. (I just took a look at all HW Champions up to the end of Foreman's career. John L. Sullivan called Jeffries, "the fastest big man I ever saw," Marvin Hart beat Jack Johnson over 20, the only guys who don't seem to have been recognized for speed and quickness seem to be Max Baer, Liston and Foreman, but we have footage of the latter three, and George seems slowest of them to me.)

Regarding pure toughness, Frazier is insane. Broken left arm from wrestling a hog not properly set, eye blinded by metal shrapnel from an old speed bag kept secret, likewise for a broken left thumb before winning Olympic Gold in Tokyo, battling through chronic high BP, arthritis, staving off the same chronic morbid obesity which killed Buster Mathis, Sr. at just 53, and never made excuses for anything. (Mathis, Sr. was a limited HW, but great natural athlete, and I wonder how long he might've lived if he'd somehow managed to keep his weight at 220, the lightest he ever scaled for the ring. Of course Greg Page did very poorly at the lower weights he scaled. but might still be alive if his old man had allowed him to pursue a basketball scholarship instead. Greg deserved that, and Jack Quarry should've let Jerry pursue academic success instead of forcing him and his brother Mike to try living out his own dreams, killing both off decades before their times.)

That toughness means Frazier would've prevailed where Foreman failed. There's no way Young beats prime Frazier, who would've constantly hammered Jimmy's body with no letup.

I've no doubt that a past peak JQ would've dethroned Foreman in 1973. We know what Frazier did to Jerry twice. Ron Lyle gave George hell. JQ had already taken Ron to school for a disappointing conclusion to the CBS 60 Minutes profile being done on Lyle, flipping the script.


As I only rate up to the end of the Championship Distance and Tyson, I consider peak Joe Frazier to be a likely top five HW. I can't put George in the top ten.

 

I do in fact rank McLarnin higher than Ross. I think his resume is just a bit better

 

Fair enough.

Ross was smaller, yet won their series.

Vs Canzoneri Ross went 2-0, Jimmy only 1-1 despite being the bigger man.

Ross lost 4 out of his 77 fights, McLarnin 11 of his 69, including to the smaller Billy Petrolle, against whom Ross was 2-0.

Both had splendid names on their win resumes, but in McLarnin's case he was often the bigger man against those names and he lost far more often.

I see no argument for ranking McLarnin higher, p4p. I've seen many lists that include these 2 and have never seen McLarnin higher.