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Tony Zale's power is unproven IMO, because he ducked alot of top fighters of his era and did not take on one single member of the black murders row. He wanted no part of Jake Lamotta either. His power looks great against weak chinned graziano, and his punching technique his textbook, but he leaves a lot of unaswered question.

 

Zale's title was frozen when he enlisted in WWII. He cannot be faulted for not facing those guys when he wasn't there. There were elimination matches that were arranged that involved Lamotta, Graziano, champ Zale, and Burley. But Zale and Graziano ended up fighting a trilogy that no one should complain about happening -and it was actually Lamotta who refused to sign to fight Burley.

As per Zale's power, keep in mind that Hostak was never stopped in 84 fights but 3 times. The first two was Zale. Soose was never stopped, but Zale had him on ***** street for 3 rounds after landing one shot in round 1.

Graziano wasn't weak chinned. He was stopped twice by two men -Zale and Robinson -and both of those could swat.

Forget that chump with the cape --Don't count out the real "Man of Steel".

 

A fight between him and burley/or charles could have come off before. Burley and charles his # 2 contender challenged him, zale declined. Zale wanted no part of burley/charles or any of the black murders row.

When Zale came back in 1946 here were the Ring Magzine rankings


Tony Zale, Champion

1. Holman Williams
2. Charley Burley
3. Jake LaMotta

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5. Marcel Cerdan
6. Bee Bee Washington
7. Aaron (Tiger) Wade
8. George (Wildcat) Henry
9. Jimmy Edgar
10. Bert Lytell



Notice how he chooses to fight Rocky Graziano who is ranked # 4, rather than burley williams lamotta who have been consistently top 3 throught the world war II years.


Then Checkout ring magazine rankings for the following year entering 1947


1. Jake LaMotta
2. Charley Burley

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4. Marcel Cerdan
5. Georgie Abrams
6. Steve Belloise
7. Jimmy Edgar
8. Bert Lytell
9. Sam Baroudi
10. Al (Red) Priest


Zale once again avoids his top 2 contenders including his # 1 Jake Lamotta and gives Graziano a rematch instead of fighting the more deserving challengers.

Sure it was very exiciting, but you can't tell me with a straight face Graziano deserved title shot over Lamotta, Burley, or H Williams because he did not. Graziano was nowhere near as good as those 3. Zale did not want any part of Jake Lamotta. Jake had a style that could actually take zales best and keep coming and never stop. Jake in his prime would have teared Zale limb to limb.

No that was Marcel Cerdan. Lamotta feared no one, he fought them all he took on the whole black murders row and top middles of his era. Lamotta had balls of steel.




Is it just a coincidence Zale did not take on one member of the black murders row? Jake Lamotta took on the whole damm flock!

Graziano was pretty damm easy to floor. Alot of welterweights did the job. Graziano was the Arturo Gatti of his era, but he was nowhere near a great fighter.

Impressive Stuff but lets see if zale can do this to charley burley or jake lamotta, iron chinned with a lot more to offer.

 

Tony Zales win over Georgia Abrams was by far his best win.

 

I was waiting for that. It is a battle between me and Lobotomy, he even says things that I think are too far.

Jersey Joe Walcott: Suzie Q.

 

Not true. There was a lot of pressure on Dempsey to give Wills the title shot, based on his longterm dominance of the heavyweight division while Dempsey sat on the sidelines.

The fight was virtually organized, when they decided that the No.2 contender Gene Tunney was a more marketable option, and offered Wills a match with Tunney to fight Dempsey. Wills turned it down.

Tunney basically then became the No.1 contender. There was such an uproar by some parties that saw Wills as the true No.1 contender despite ducking Tunney, that they had problems arranging a venue for the fight in America.

SuzieQ check the dates, this was all prior to the Sharkey fight. The Sharkey fight was October 1926, the eventual Tunney-Dempsey fight was September 1926.

Basically the case is that in the time Dempsey sat on the title, when he should've been defending the title against Harry Wills and others, another genuine contender emerged with a number of impressive wins in the heavyweight division, and as such, he was given the chance to earn the title of "No.1" contender Vs Harry Wills, but was able to bypass the fight.

 

Hold on now. Zale took the title from Abrams on 28 November 1941. Three months later, he's fighting LHW BILLY CONN who was fighting HWs at this time, and Zale was outweighed by 11 pounds! Then he goes off to war. These aren't the markings of meekness!

That's the business of boxing. Graziano was dangerous and he was a ticket seller. This isn't avoidance or fear, this is high reward, less risk. It always happens. I think that it is presumptious to consider Zale any less courageous than Lamotta.

The Zale/Graziano rematch was scheduled in March but was re-scheduled in July and then guess what -Graziano takes the title. So, now everyone has to wait for the rubber -which makes sense because it was another barn-burner.

Meanwhile Cerdan was making waves by beating Abrams... and inserted himself into the picture in December of 46.

Zale should not be criticized in the least for giving Graziano a rematch! Would you rob the world of one of the best boxing trilogies ever?

Anyway, it's 1947 and as Zale and Graziano are duking it out, Abe Green, the president of the NBA, proposes that Lamotta and Burley face off to see who faces Cerdan to see who is left standing to face either Zale or Graziano. Sounds great, would have been great, but Lamotta refuses to sign to fight Burley.

Wuz dat fear? Nah. It's business. Lamotta doesn't want to risk his ranking against the dangerous Burley. He just wants mutha f*cka title shot! At the end of 47 what does he do... he sells his soul to the devil in a sharkskin suit and throws the Billy Fox fight.

Wait a minute... was Zale avoiding Murderer's Row or Lamotta? Zale had options and he did the smart thing -he took the puncher who was not as talented as the others, but who would bring in the most lucrative purse!

Leonard fought Duran because Duran was the smallest, the oldest, and had the least risk and the most money than say, Hearns. I can't fault him there. Nor can I fault Zale.

It was a combination of risk/reward and circumstances. Zale took the title from Abrams, went to war, came back and faced Graziano, had a rematch, lost it, reclaimed it in the rubber, then lost it to Cerdan. It would have made no sense for him to stop the press and face Burley.

 

I tend to agree with you about Zale but in fairness to him he was on the slide after the War,thats what made the Graziano trilogy so competitve imo.

 

Senya might have something to say about that!

:yep

 

Bobby Chacon

 

:hey

 

Just like Wills got a title shot as promised, after he'd beat Firpo?


He was being held on a leash for many, many years. He was never going to get his title shot despite being the #1 contender for something like 7 consecutive years. Seven years!!!!

 

Some sectors of the boxing commission shared your (and mine) distaste for what happened to Wills.

You really have to blame Jack Dempsey here, there was pressure on him to take the fight and he didn't - If you wanted to be specific, I guess you'd blame Dempseys representation (And his wife Estelle), but ultimately he's still accountable.

I still believe he'd have got his shot if he defeated Tunney

 

And I just knew that as soon as you were mentioned you'd bring me up!

But among heavyweights alone, I'm also a mark for Dempsey, Tunney, Schemling, Carnera, Jerry Quarry, Marciano and Jimmy Young. Others I have a high regard for are Duran, Vilomar Fernandez, Pryor, Jim Watt (the poster boy for how a slow lightweight can decision boxing's fastest man), Pep, Manny Ortiz, Benny Leonard, Barney Ross, Bobby Chacon, ect, etc.... For you, the one single answer is obvious. I'm too promiscuous with my extravagant praise. (Hey, maybe someone should start a thread about who the biggest detractors are, a particular boxer's most notorious anti-fans!)