Fighters of the Century per Futch/Dundee/Clancy/Duva/Chargin - The Bantamweights.

Zarate for Ollie & Pintor for Alfonso.

 

Thnk you again @JohnThomas1

 

I know this is made in committee, but this is a genuinely terrible list. Absolutely no reason to rate Zarate that high (or even in the top ten, unless you're including/rating head-to-head), nor a reason to have Panama above some of the fighters he's over IMO. Zamora, Carruthers and Escobar are well out of place. This is my list:

#10. Rafael Herrera
#09. Panama Al Brown
#08. Chucho Castillo
#07. Kid Williams
#06. Terry McGovern
#05. Fighting Harada
#04. Pete Herman
#03. Eder Jofre
#02. Manuel Ortiz
#01. Ruben Olivares

 

Zarate not being in the top 10 would be crazy. Such a dominant performer. Although Zamora didn’t go on to be the great fighter people said, it’s hard to ignore the form book coming into the fight. It’s the biggest fight ever between two nationals. Zarate also dethroned a borderline great champion at the high point in his career and dominated some real high quality contenders at their best like Davila and Ferreri. There’s some excellent KO’s pre-title too like Jimenez, Amores, Sosa and some good California prospects. Zarate, was a bit like Tito Trinidad in that he wrecked some guys and they were never the same again. Plus his only “loss” at the weight is widely accepted as one of the worst decisions of that decade. I guess we all rate differently but Zarate is generally top 5 on damn near every list for a reason.

Panama Al is acceptable in the top 5 too. I imagine I probably have him around 5-6, but 4 isn’t a terrible placement. Agree Escobar probably isn’t a top 10 guy but - spotty looking record aside - he was a superb champion with a great record in title fights.

I like your inclusion of Herrera in the top 10. I think that’s fair, but I wouldn’t personally think Castillo should be there. Probably just outside.

 

Me too! I love Zarate, I'll absolutely admit I'm a fan boy of his. I think the bantamweight division is one of the hardest divisions to say one guy is much better than all the rest. I mean geez, Olivares, Jofre, Zarate, Brown ,Harada and a couple of others and you've got a group where anyone of them could get a win over the other or lose to them. I think a Bantamweight tournament among these fighters would be the most competitive of any division possible.

 

Sorry friend but this tired old line of Fleas and yrs is bull**** & flies in the face of historical facts. YOU are better than this I think.

 

Great & agreed!!!!!!!!

 

I don't give much credit for getting massive undefeated streaks if you only beat five ranked fighters in your whole career. Bracketing Davila and Ferreri in the same category is misleading, Davila was miles better than Ferreri was never much more than commonwealth level. A slippery southpaw, sure. Nothing that blows my mind, though. Very few elite wins, and plenty of losses. Rodolfo Martinez is a good win; as is Davila. Zamora gets a bit overrated IMO, but that's another decent win. But this is the extent of his résumé. Jimenez and Torres were gatekeepers at best - like Hernandez, and Amores was nothing special, even at flyweight. I don't know much about these California prospects so I won't judge, but I will say that I'm extremely doubtful they were good enough to change my opinion on this. If they were, I'd have heard of them. As I say, I don't tend to care about pretty records. Furthermore, this matter with the Pintor loss is ridiculous. The worst decision of the decade? Please. It was extremely close and Pintor won a decision. Maybe if Zarate hadn't spat his dummy out and acted like a baby, he'd have gotten a rematch and would've won that. What kind of excuse is that his confidence was lost? If you don't want to lose your confidence, don't get annihilated. Pintor didn't, he did much better vs Gomez. Pintor should be rated above Zarate, simply on the basis of both beating him, and beating more ranked fighters on the whole.

I wholeheartedly believe that the reason Zarate is high up on every list from historians, magazines and such, is that they don't as much about the lower weights as they think they do. Zarate at 118 is like Whitaker at 135 - incredibly dominant, extremely high head-to-head, but they don't have the résumé or achievements to be as high as their talent should be. If he didn't retire for seven years in his prime, then maybe he'd have beaten guys like Pintor, Chandler, Lujan, etc.

With Panama, I don't think they're too far off the mark, I just think he has to be below Herman, Harada and Ortiz. Having him at six is extremely fair though, if you have those guys above him; with Jofre or Olivares, as well. And I know, Sixto was an excellent fighter; I have him at nineteen on my list. Just can't see him that high. Certainly not above some of the older bantams from the golden era.

I rate Chucho's wins higher than I do, Herrera's, but yeah, they're pretty interchangeable. I prefer Medel, Pimental, Caraballo and a much better version of Olivares (albeit in a less dominant win, and only one of them) as well as a blowout of Herrera, opposed to a close win over Chucho, an out-of-shape Olivares, Martinez, Venice and Anaya. If you wanted to use your (or my) own cards, you could say Chucho won the rematch, beat Rose, and Herrera lost to Borkhorsor. I wouldn't because I tend not to rank like that because of how subject it gets, but it is close either way.

 

Zarate didn’t “spit out his dummy” he’d actually began training for a rematch, then Pintor got injured in a motorcycle wreck. Zarate was struggling to make the weight also and was getting hooked on things outside of boxing. It’s a myth that he simply cried off. It’s true that he was tiring of the politics in the sport but he was actively training for a rematch with Pintor.

I’ve seen opinions of historians who I can vouch 100% do know the lower weight classes and do have Zarate top 3. You may think Zárate’s loss was just but again, I am speaking in terms of popular opinion. It’s widely seen as one of the worst decisions of that decade. That’s hard to ignore. Nobody thought Pintor won including Pintor. The Gomez who fought Pintor was nowhere near the same guy as he Gomez who fought Zarate. Also, it’s well documented that Zarate asked to have the fight pushed back due to illness. That’s not a post-fight excuse that’s what was reported before the fight. He was sick as a dog fight week. It sounds like excuses but if you afford Olivares excuses for being tight at the weight or whatever, you’ve got to give some credit to Zárate’s illness too.