Fighters of the Century per Futch/Dundee/Clancy/Duva/Chargin - The Welterweights.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Jun 26, 2021.



  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'm undecided on Basilio against Hearns, resume-wise. Which one is weaker, all things considered, I haven't decided.
    But I think they are both overrated on welterweight ATG lists generally. Basilio certainly in the example this thread highlighted.
    Basilio gets overrated at 147 due to his achievements at 160, I think.
    Hearns gets overrated because he punched so hard and was in a "Super-Fight" with Leonard, and his considerable career above welter.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    He beat Cardell over the weights and the one time they fought at 147 he lost. Like Turner harsh, but true. Where does one draw the line? 1 pound over? 2? Up to 5? More? Also do we draw the line differently between say, lightweights and light heavyweights due to the natural poundage increase?

    Grahams best win was again over the weights and he'd actually lost to Giardello twice in the previous 7 months before finally getting the W. All bouts were over the weights.

    In the year leading up to the first bout between Graham and Basilio Billy actually had a streak of 5 fights in a row without a win. Giardello's best was still in front of him.

    It's Hearns for me.
     
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I'd quite like to see the argument for Hearns ahead of Ross.
     
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  4. garfios

    garfios Dark Lord Full Member

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    I don't think hearns has a better resume at 147, than Rodriguez. El Feo was something else at welter and fought everyone.
     
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  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I don't expect everyone to do it how I do it, but I do expect a little common sense. It's ridiculous to not include a fight a pound over the weight if the weights are how they used to be, with like 10lbs better each of them. Both were welterweights, and were actively competing in the division at the time. They should be included.

    Even if Basilio's win over Giardello was above WW, it showed he was still a top fighter. I'd happily take that win over Cuevas. Especially given that Cuevas would never win another meaningful fight and as Unforgiven points out, just a top conetnder. Actually, I'm fairly certain that he wasn't even top three in the division.

    Even if all of the criticisms you could apply to Basilio are true, and you didn't apply them to Hearns, Tommy's résumé wouldn't impress me as much as Basilio's. It's no slight on Hearns, he's an absolute beast at the weight head-to-head, he just didn't do much there. He's got one good win and a loss to Leonard. Definitely not enough to be top ten.
     
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    You are right. I must have completely forgot Rodriguez for a moment when I wrote that.
     
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  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, Hearns might merit a clear top 10 place if we weigh the list heavily towards "head to head", but I can't see any way he should make a top 10 list based on resume or "accomplishment".
     
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  8. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I would have loved to see Jose Mantequilla Napoles vs Carmen Basilio.
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    I wouldn't call it "common sense" i'd call it personal criteria. I'm pretty sure McGrain was extremely strict on this exact point when he painstakingly spent hundreds of hours putting together his extensive lists.

    I can and do get your point tho.

    This here is the thing. There is no substitute for living an era. You live the feel, you get feedback from various outlets and people and you're part of the journeys as they progress. Of course you still need some common sense and half an idea of what you are seeing and reading.

    To describe Cuevas as "just a top contender" and the like shows no feel or intimate knowledge of the era. He wasn't top 3 in the division? Come on George. Cuevas was a revered fighter, an immensely feared fighter in a way that you guys don't realize. The guy wasn't just knocking people out he was breaking jaws, eye sockets, cheek bones and the like. It was a reign of terror. Sure he was flawed but his power certainly offset a lot of that. There was loads of people that thought him the top man for some length of time.

    The was Hearns demolished such a fearsome iron jawed opponent makes it one of the best wins in Welterweight history.

    i'm assuming you mean Graham's won over Giardello and not Basilio's.

    There's no doubt Graham could fight. There's also no doubt Giardello was some time off hitting his straps.

    Noway on earth would i remotely consider taking that win over Hearns - Ceuvas.

    I'm not trying to apply "criticisms" i'm trying to compare the merits of two fighters. Hearns win over Cuevas is being greatly underrated while some of Basilio's are if anything being built up.

    Hearns showing in the Leonard fight certainly has to be a plus too. Most consider Ray the #2 Welter and if they happened to have multiple fights over 10 rounds (like Giardello - Graham) Hearns would get his share.

    In another post not so long ago i also expanded on his wins over rated contenders -

    Clyde Gray was still considered the 3rd best welterweight in the world. He was in the twilight but still winning and a fledgling Hearns beat him in just his 15th fight.
    Weston was still in the middle of the top 10 and was coming off a close title shot loss to Benitez.
    Espada was comfortably in the top 10 and absolutely belted.
    Primera was top 10.
    Shields was sniffing around the 5 mark.
    Pretty sure Colbert was still a top 10 middle tho Hearns weighed 152.


    It's Hearns for me.
     
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  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    The list of Welterweights that would have been the "real" champion with peak SRL sitting on top of the throne can be counted on the fingers of one hand and one might not need many of said fingers.

    Remember too that SRL refused a rematch with him. Hearns only left welter permanently when he couldn't get that rematch.

    Also Ezzard Charles was never champion at light heavyweight. Where do you rate him?
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He wasn't the champion, Duran was. He wasn't the number one contender, Leonard was. He wasn't the number two contender, Benitez was. He wasn't even top three in the division when Hearns beat him. I don't consider it an overly great win, just a great performance. I may not have lived the era, but I know it inside and out. Cuevas was feared, but now we can view everything for what it was fifty years later with no romanticism. In reality, Cuevas wasn't top three at the time, and he in the grand scheme of things, how good was he? He wasn't as good as Graham, that's for sure. I doubt he was as good as Ortega or Turner, actually. He definitely wasn't good enough to become one of the "best wins in Welterweight history".
    We'll have to disagree. Some of Basilio's wins are absolutely being underrated, and I can't fathom why on earth you'd rate a win over Cuevas as highly as you are doing. One of the best wins in welterweight history? Really? I can think of countless wins better than that. Starting with Duran's win over Palomino.

    Hearns KO loss to Leonard isn't a positive, it's a loss. Sure, he lost to Leonard and y'know, who wouldn't? but he didn't win, therefore, I don't know what credit you want to give him. I find it hard to rate someone top ten on the basis of one win and a competitive loss. Basilio's fight with Gavilan would be more of a plus IMO.
    I'm not saying these wins are impressive, but they're not the type of wins that blow my mind and think "he's gotta be top ten".
    These wins are very meh. Ranked fighters who never beat anyone like Primers, or fighters who'd lose twice back-to-back after Hearns to Ranzany and Clarke like Grey don't impress me. I had Benitez comfortably out-classing Weston in their rematch, and Espada would fight once more and that's it. Keep in mind, even at their best, none of these guys are otherworldly or all-time greats. Just solid contenders. Even Shields, nothing special. There's nothing here which jumps out at me as being top ten material.

    And I don't even have Basilio top ten, or even top fifteen. Hearns just has no major chievements at WW. He was an absolute terror there, but ultimately didn't do much.
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    At Light Heavyweight Ezzard Charles has 3 wins over Archie Moore, 2 wins over Joey Maxim, went 2-1 with Lloyd Marshall, and 3-1 with Jimmy Bivins. Remind me what Hearns did at Welterweight again?
     
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Hearns left welterweight though. Leonard had eye surgery and retired.
    Hearns could have stayed at 147 and built a resume against the likes of Curry and Stafford and Starling there.
    But he went up to middleweight and was set to challenge Hagler instead, to his credit.



    Charles rates in the top 3 at light-heavy. He beat the best fighters around in the era at that weight.
    Hearns beat one of the best of his era at 147, and there were about 4 other 'top' guys there he didn't beat at that weight.

    You really haven't made any case for Hearns's resume at all.
     
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  14. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm happy with any assortment of these names being on your top ten. For my money, they all obviously have better achievements at 147 than Tommy.

    #12. Mickey Walker
    #11. Ted Kid Lewis
    #10. Barney Ross
    #09. Tommy Ryan
    #08. Luis Rodriguez
    #07. Jose Napoles
    #06. Emile Griffith
    #05. Kid Gavilan
    #04. Henry Armstrong
    #03. Jack Britton
    #02. Ray Leonard
    #01. Sugar Ray Robinson

    Just to specify my criteria, I include fights where the ranked fighter was with five pounds of the weight, unless that broaches a '*******' division's weight (so I'd ignore featherweight non-title fights if they were fought at the SFW limit, but I'd allow LHWs the full five pounds, so up to 180) and I'd also include fights between two people I'd class at the weight. So for instance, I'd rank Hopkins' win over Kelly as part of his middleweight resume. Because in reality, it was just two middleweights in there, even though they fought at another weight. It's complicated, it's horrid, it's hard to get you're head around, but it's mine.
     
  15. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It's one win. A great one, yes.

    And, yes, Cuevas was "just a top contender", a fearsome one, yes, but his WBA title was of dubious lineage.
    If Cuevas was "the man" at the time of SRL-Duran then it calls into question SRL's very high all-time ranking and the significance of Duran's win over SRL, etc.