Fighters of the Century per Futch/Dundee/Clancy/Duva/Chargin - The Welterweights.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Jun 26, 2021.


  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Well i said it, and it's been regurgitated so i'll back it for kicks.

    Hearns - Cuevas was a legitimate superfight and it was billed as such at the time. Cuevas had made 11 defenses of his WBA title and only one guy had lasted the distance. He left a trail of broken bones in his wake. Hearns was 28 zip with 26 knockouts behind him. The anticipation of a meeting between two such incredibly brutal punchers was electric.

    Hearns brutalized him in ridiculous fashion. Cuevas was considered by many to be the hardest punching welterweight in history and he also complemented this with a jaw that was considered to be iron. Hearns shattered it as if it was china.

    It's immensely likely no-one else in the history of the division could have done such a job on Cuevas in just two rounds. They'd have to not only beat him, and KO him, but do it in two rounds.

    You meant Graham from memory. Not even close for me. Not even remotely. Graham was on his third try at Giardello within the space of seven months. Giardello's best was yet to come. In his last 13 fights Giardello had failed to win 6 of them. There was no title at stake. Giardello was a decade away from winning a title.

    Hearns won Ring Magazines Fighter of the Year honors for his demolition of Pipino. Not bad for a win over a "contender", one that "wasn't even top three in the division".

    Bear in mind that year included SRL's revenge on Duran. Hearns however was considered above. Hagler also became champion. It looks like Hearns win over Cuevas was indeed ranked extremely highly - at that exact moment in time.

    As for Cuevas never winning another meaningful fight? So what? History is littered with such examples and similar. The fact of the matter is that Hearns - Cuevas is actually a legitimate example of one guy ruining another. The term gets bandied about far far too often but here we actually have the genuine article. It was widely speculated at that time that Cuevas might never recover.

    You don't know the era "inside and out" George. Sure you've done an impressive amount of research and know it better than most. Not inside out tho. You simply don't have enough access to enough of the tidbits and insights among other things. A lot of it is gone or not readily obtainable.

    Romanticism is possible looking back at any era from well forward of it. So to is historical revisionism. We see this almost daily in here.

    Of course there are plenty of people who lived the era that don't have much of a clue. Some people just can't take things in.

    You used hindsight in a comment above - well in hindsight Benitez never fought at 147 again.

    He was certainly better than you believe IMO.

    Duran's win over Palomino better than Hearns over Cuevas? You have to be kidding. You keep mentioning Cuevas wasn't top 3, well where was Palomino? He'd lost his last fight so certainly wasn't ahead of Cuevas and Benitez. I doubt he was ahead of Hearns by this point. Duran was favorite so he probably wasn't ahead of him either. SRL was near the top as well. He may not have been top 5.

    Cuevas never won another meaningful fight but Palomino didn't even fight again, unless you count returning almost 20 years later.

    Hearns was behind Leonard in development, that is carved in stone. Leonard was at his absolute peak in this fight. Despite this he was taken to hell and back in a fight that needs no explanation. It was two ATG's taking it down to the wire. Hearns boxing was eye opening to many that didn't think he had that sort of string to his bow.

    Fighters can be extremely impressive in a loss. Do you give Duran any credit at all for his effort against Hagler?

    How about Gavilan running SRR close in fight 1?

    In essence what you are saying is that you would rate Hearns loss the same as if he was ko'd with the first punch of the fight. Same with Duran per Hagler. I can't agree on that one.
     
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  2. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I think you're confusing the quality of the performance and the quality of the win. It was an incredible performance, one of the best in welterweight history. Just not one of the best wins because Cuevas wasn't good enough for it to be one of the best wins.
    Yeah, I think Graham's a better win. He's a much better fighter. Graham's first fight with Giardello was incredibly controversial. The decision was in question by officials, the camp were campaigning to have it turned over and the AP had it 8-2. The second fiight was incredibly close, as well. The third fight wasn't. Graham clearly showed he was better than that version of Giardello. Of those thirteen - which is a very specific number - Giardello also arguably won all of them, and he'd beat another fighter who I'd consider to be better than Cuevas in Turner.

    Furthermore, if Cuevas fought Hearns in 1953, there'd be no title at stake either. And anywho, I'd be interested in knowing what wins Cuevas has which are better than a young all-time great middleweight.
    I highly doubt there's any small insight or titbit that would change my mind. I know everything I need to know.
    Benitez was ranked higher at the time, hindsight or not.
    Palomino > Cuevas

    Win over Palomino > Win over Cuevas

    This is the entire depth of my logic there. Which is exactly why I said arguably, because you could value the quality of the performance or where they were rated in the rankings.
    Completely disagree. Hearns was no further away from his peak than Leonard was. He turned out one of his best performances on the night, one of them a year earlier and was still doing so a good few years after. I don't buy the idea that there was astronomical change between Hearns at 147 and Hearns at 154. It's marginal IMO, and Hearns was both prime for Leonard, and would always lose to prime Leonard in a fifteen rounder.
    That sort of things impresses me more in terms of head-to-head ability, which I don't include when evaluating 'greatness'. So no, it makes no difference whatsoever. Actually, no losses do. I don't think they should bring someone's greatness down. So really, Hearns could do everything he did pre-Leonard and then lose 30 times in the first round and I wouldn't change his rating.

    Same again for both Gavilan and Duran. They're just confirming how good they were, head-to-head. A loss isn't something which should be used to boost your rating. I'm not rating Rudduck top fifty at HW coz he lost to Tyson impressively.
    It would affect how I - and everyone - saw them head-to-head. But no, it would make no difference to me whether they were annihilated in one or if he was taken out in the fourteenth while up on points. Either way, he lost and it was conclusive.

    You shouldn't be rating someone top ten based off one win and a competitive loss IMO. No matter who it was.
     
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree that you must take into account how one-sided wins/losses are. If Hearns had just squeezed by Cuevas on a decision after being in trouble several times during the fight and then got smashed by Leonard like, say, a Dave Boy Green, that would of course significantly effect his ranking. But that wasn't the case, as we know. He obliterated Cuevas and gave Leonard one of his hardest fight, probably his most hard earned win.
     
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  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    BINGO!