Fighters that were involved or managed by the MOB

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Vic-JofreBRASIL, Nov 16, 2023.

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  1. kingfisher3

    kingfisher3 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Sep 9, 2011
    lamotta wasn't 'mobbed up'.

    he was a boxer in an era when the mob controlled the sport.

    dafuq you gonna do? ike williams was no joke like carnera, he did what he had to do to be at the level he obviously should have been at.
  2. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009

  3. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    Is it your position that no fighter in the era could get a title shot without throwing fights for the mob?

    If so, give us the list of fixed fights they tanked and for whom. If not, why was Jake so special.

    He was approached with a bribe to tank and he accepted the terms after negotiation (initiated by him) that they include a title shot. He botched it so bad (by his own admission) that he had to wait too long because it was so obvious and drew a big stink.

    How many other fighters got unlicensed/suspended for fixing a fight in NYC (the most powerful commission and biggest boxing hotbed in the world) and still were able to go right along making a living by getting fight after fight without any real repercussions on their career … unless their ‘friends in high places’ made sure they were taken care of.

    He paid some side money to get a title shot. Wouldn’t say to whom. Didn’t name the mob even when asked just about ‘the mob’ with no names attached.

    Jake was in the thick of it. For some odd reason you don’t want to see it — probably because it goes against the narrative of a movie that painted him as a hero.

    Ask yourself this: he had a nightclub in Miami. Is it your position that one in that time and place that anyone could open a nightclub in Miami without some mob blessing? Is it your position that one could do that AND run prostitution with a 14-year-old girl (he did hard time for ths so let’s not act like it didn’t happen) without the mob’s consent? Did the mob in Miami control prostitution or not? Did it have its hands in things like liquor licenses or not? How did Jake get away with that and face no sort of repercussions? Is that how the mob operated, or did they come down hard on those operating criminal enterprises in their backyard because THEY controlled crime?

    Yeah, go ahead and believe the guy who says ‘I had nothing to do with the mob.’ Gatti (John, not Arturo) was framed, too, just like everyone else who ever denied their obvious (and in Jake’s case documented and by his own words) mob ties.
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Feb 10, 2013

    Again, Jake did name names. You are just choosing to not outline that fact for the sake of your argument.

    in your defense of Graziano leading to this discussion you ignore that twice he was banned and sanctioned in relation to bribes and also participated in a fixed fight where Harold Green threw their third fight, their only fight Graziano won. But more to the point, without an admission, how do you prove a fix? How many fighters admitted to participating in a fix? If you want to pretend that the mob didnt control boxing in the 1950s this discussion isnt even worth continuing because thats a well established fact and getting title shots almost always had to go through the mob. Almost, not always, but almost always. Denying that is just ignorance, willful or otherwise.

    To be clear: Are you alleging that Jake opened his nightclub in Florida either with the blessing of the mob or for the mob. Instead of asking what you would have us believe are rhetorical questions Id prefer you to state plainly whether you think thats the case so I have you on record before making you look like a know nothing fool when I tell you exactly how all of that transpired. You know this because weve gone over this before but I will remind you that I have hours and hours of interviews with Vikki and Jake and Joey and several others involved in Jakes life and career including a private conversation between Vikki and the DA in Miami talking about Jakes case years later in which the DA outlines exactly what happened to Jake and his club. You dont. Ypu dont know. But youll go on pontificating about his life like you do because youve seen some gangster movies. Lol. So go ahead and layout exactly what you think. So we can all have a laugh.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2023
    mcvey likes this.
  5. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    I don’t think the mob allows people to operate prostitution in their territories without their blessing or a piece of the action.

    Do you?

    Figure any Joe could go into that business without paying tribute to the mob and they just stand by and allow it?

    Please provide your tapes so we can all hear them and decide for ourselves. Whatever you claim in regard to that, back it up. Otherwise maybe you made it up.

    As for Jake’s testimony and naming names, I’ve linked it. It includes the key portions of his meeting in front of the DA on May 11, 1960, read into the record. He says certain names (Milo/Carbo/Palermo) ‘may have been mentioned’ but says it’s in relation to signing for the fight, not the bribes to throw the Janiro and Fox fights. Then he walks that back and says he was confused, that the only person involved that he knows the name of was his brother.

    His brother, btw, basically pleaded the fifth amendment on any question beyond ‘do you know your brother’ and ‘are you married.’ Odd choice for someone so innocent (statute of limitations had expired). And Joey was in the pinball machine/vending business. I guess you’re going to tell me the mob didn’t control that racket, haha.

    Jake admitted to knowing and being friends with and often hanging out with numerous organized crime figures in his testimony. Odd how a man who ‘hated’ the mob was so friendly with so many mobsters. He admits to knowing a known bookmaker and gambling figure but says he didn’t know during his boxing career that the guy was in that business, but relates how they became quite friendly after he moved to Florida … but of course Jake was just an innocent guy with no mob ties.

    Just read the testimony. It’s all there in his own words. What the wife he beat like she was his sparring partner says … I’m not sure how relevant that is to anything but since you ‘have tapes!!!’ that you say clear Jake of all crimes and shady business with the mob, I guess that absolves him, lol.

    So produce them.

    Is it your position that Jake went to prison and spent time on a chain gang for … nothing? Or that he was pimping a child? And do you condone that? You seem to be quite the LaMotta apologist so perhaps you think that’s OK?

    As for Graziano, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I made no defense of Graziano. I just put the idea of him fighting welterweights (when he weighed like 152 on average) in perspective by showing how Jake often fought welters while he was a light heavyweight, being up to 16 pounds bigger in key fights. You said that was good, that Jake fighting welters (and losing to them while being a de facto three divisions higher is what make LaMotta great or some such). I don’t have any real opinion on Graziano — he was a fairly average fighter for a champion but he wasn’t a weight bully like Jake.

    Every fact I’ve stated is backed up by testimony and the record that no one, including you, disputes. It’s a thread about boxers with mob ties. You on the one hand admit Jake threw a fight (at least one) for the mob and did business with the mob, but on the other hand want to say ‘but he had nothing to do with the mob.’ It literally cannot be both.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2023
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    Jun 2, 2006
    I have an idea what to say ,but I want to continue posting here!
  7. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    Serious question:

    If the mob controlled boxing (to an extend they did) and the mob controlled gambling (Nevada legalized sports gambling in 1931 but it was mostly dusty cowboys and workers building the dam coming to town to lay wagers — in the 1940s the ‘real’ Las Vegas began to form under Mafia direction) … who were they betting with/against when they fixed fights?

    I’m not disputing the mob’s influence in boxing or in gambling. Clearly most bookies (especially in big cities like New York) were under organized crime control.

    So if Fat Tony’s crew fixed a fight, presumably they did so to make money off betting. I mean, if they controlled boxing, they could give guys they owned title shots whenever they chose, right? For instance, why would Billy Fox need to beat LaMotta to get a title shot? He’d already had one with no wins of note and who was going to stop the mob for arranging another?

    Yes, I’m sure there were fixes to enhance fighters’ records but that doesn’t lead to some massive profit necessarily … sure not gains that couldn’t have been made anyway by just awarding their favored fighters (those with the right connections) title shots and main events at the best venues (which they largely controlled) … so that leaves gambling as the major way to make money — bet the underdog and have the favorite take a dive and cash in.

    But who is Fat Tony’s crew placing those bets with? Was it just mobsters ripping off other mobsters? Who was taking those bets if it wasn’t mob bookies? And wouldn’t there be some kind of payback for that?

    Again, I’m not saying these things didn’t happen. They did. But who were the mob betting against? Was it just hoping enough people bet the favorite so their bookies would win, as opposed to laying large wagers on the underdog themselves?
  8. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    You could just discuss the topic and make counterpoints, if you have any. Nobody would ban you for that.
  9. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Aug 26, 2004
    Ali through the Dundee's were connected, Tyson had Cus who was friendly with Fat Tony Salerno, Buddy Mcgirt, Al Certo was close with many mob guys because of his clothing store.

    Ray Robinson had connections; Mob guys love boxing but how many actually changed the outcomes of fights. It was a short window when Frankie Carbo (Mr. Grey) ran the sport through the promoters.

    Don King was connected to the Ohio guys and had friends in NY but wasn't really trusted.

    It's not like the "MOB" Italian -Jewish- Irish guys constantly controlled everything just maybe protected many from the sharks of the business. (Which are always there.

    If you look at the way the Alphabet organizations controlled and manipulated fights judges' fighters in the 80's with their South American organizations and sanctioning abilities
    you would see the mob tactics never left the sport just moved venues.

    Look at King, look at Arum, look at golden boy among others. Power corrupts. Boxing is a tough guy sport, but the boxer is usually the most honest guy.
    thistle likes this.
  10. thistle

    thistle Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 21, 2016
    too Right, many of the Boxer's though no angels, were just young men moving up the Ranks looking for a Shot and in many a case their rightful shot. It's a lowlife Business, where the one's at the Top of it's Control were all in one way shape or form either connected or knew what was required to get 'in' or were forced to Play.

    if you had the time & resources you could have a Best Selling Book - Boxing - the Righted History, or something to that effect, where all the dirty business is revealed and who benefitted by it and who suffered for it. But the Players, People, Orgs, Promoters, Managers, Boards and fighters are all there, I'd love to read & study such an undertaking.
  11. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Latin America Boxing Historian Full Member

    Aug 19, 2010
    Cus knew people because he was from the Bronx but that didn’t mean anything. Al Certo knew people even more but I don’t see any dirty business with McGirt’s career.
    I guess what @janitor said is a Little true, the gangster around Back then could be, sonetimes, even better than some of these corrupt businessmen out there today. Because people are from NYC and knew wiseguys don’t mean much anyway.
    Bummy Davis likes this.
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Feb 10, 2013
    Jake wasnt running prostitution in Miami. He was framed and thats exactly the point of why I wanted to pin you down. You say he couldnt do this or do that without the mobs say so and the fact that Jake was refusing to pay kickbacks is exactly why he got framed and thrown in jail. This is outlined by the DA in his discussion with Vikki where they are both laughing and calling Jake "Jake the Snake" and Jake the Fake" (hardly sympathetic to him) but where the DA assures Vikki that Jake wasnt guilty of what he went to jail for and explains why.

    Ok so now you admit he named names in his testimony to the DA which you denied previously. He specifically said Milo was the go-between in these interactions and that Bill Daly and Blinky Palermo organized it. He walked it back AFTER he received death threats. Jakes testimony is specifically why the Milo brothers arrest records are included in the Kefauver report.

    Said the guy who has been pretending Jake didnt name names until called out on it.

    Im not sure what your point is here. Jake isnt Joey. Joey wanted Jake to keep quiet. Jake didnt. Jakes testimony was the most specific and the most sensational of the entire hearing specifically because of not only what he outlined but also because of the personal peril he put himself in and the reputational damage he caused himself. And you think he did that for what?

    Im not sure why you find this so suspicious. He was referring to Joseph DiCarlo. DiCarlo, at the time, was from Youngstown, Ohio having been run out of Buffalo and would be run out of Youngstown later as well. He was the guy who offered LaMotta money to throw the Janiro fight which LaMotta refused and subsequently beat the hell out of Janiro. This is outlined in the report but you obviously didnt read it. So if a New York guy is approached by a Youngstown guy to throw a fight to a Youngstown fighter and years later they both move to Miami it suddenly makes Jake a mobster? LOL. DiCarlo was essentially on the run from the time he left Buffalo in the early 1940s until he returned the 1960s. He had been run out of Buffalo by the police and rival gangs, run out of Youngstown by the police and rival gangs, and was essentially a small timer until he returned to Buffalo to re-establish his fathers gang. Are you now saying that he was running things in Miami and Jake was operating his club under him? LOL.

    Apparently I have and know it a lot better than you do.

    For some nameless nobody who has no clue what hes talking about and is willing to twist or obscure facts to suit his argument. Nah. Im satisfied I know this story better than you.
  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Feb 10, 2013
    No, as I outlined above Jake was framed for refusing to pay kickbacks. He denied that he was guilty of this crime his entire life yet he admitted to two rapes, beating an old man over the head with a lead pipe to the point he thought he killed him, taking a dive, carrying other fighters, I could go on and on but why deny this crime if it werent true? Its not like it was any worse than committing two rapes and attempted murder. Pandering? Give me a break. You said yourself he couldnt operate in Miami without someones blessing, you just ignore that he got shutdown just over a year after it had opened and he was thrown in prison and lost his entire fortune.

    As if all of this wasnt to deflect from the fact that Graziano was the king of "weight bully's" and literally owned lock and stock and barrel by the mob. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

    Actually youve twisted what you will to try to draw the conclusion that Jake was a mob fighter when he was anything but. He was less a mob fighter than Carmen Basilio who had a documentary made about him titled "Fighting the Mob" for ****s sake. Jake spent his entire career trying to be self managed and independent of the mob when the mob demanded a percentage of any fighter who got anywhere near a television date. He had two of his businesses stolen by the mob. At least two fighters he managed stolen by the mob and the only way he could get a title shot was by throwing a fight for the mob. In your mind he was a mob fighter because of that. Most people would see him as a victim of the mob.

    This is comical. Absolutely comical. "To an extent they did..." LOL. When the IBC entered the sport it had a monopoly on venues where boxing was held and television dates where boxing was televised. This is not conjecture it was proven in a court of law by the federal government. The IBC needed to fighters to fill those venues and TV dates. Hence, it partnered with Frankie Carbo to produce fighters. Carbo used his access to Jim Norris and the IBC to gain a monopoly on fighters and matchmaking and then fed those to the IBC. When you have that kind of control over the bottle neck in the sport its not "to some extent." Talk about a foolish comment. Furthermore, when you have that kind of control over the fighters and you own such a large piece of their contracts with the new money flowing in from television its not just about gambling. Look how much Sonny Liston's contract was sliced up. Consider that when LaMotta beat Cerdan for the title the combined purse was about $70,000. Neither fighter saw a dime of that money AND Jake had to pay the mob $20,000 for his title shot. Thats a combined $90,000. That was the equivalent to over $1million in todays money for one fight that the mob cleared. This is the problem with your argument. You have a very naïve and misinformed view on what was going on at the time. You have a few pieces of the puzzle and the rest you are trying to cobble together with a limited imagination and what you spit out in no way resembles what was going on.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
  14. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    Why did he deny running an underage prostitute? Maybe because it’s a damned bad look? Maybe for the same reason he denied being associated with the mob when it’s clear he was much closer than he or you want to admit. He was buddies with mob guys and admitted it. After his career, a guy he knew during his career who was a bookie (running a mob gambling operation) just happens to become one of his best friends when he moves to Florida … I’m sure that’s a coincidence for the guy who ‘hated the mob.’

    You say he was set up as if it’s a fact. Your basis for this is some tape you claim to have where his wife was talking to a LATER district attorney in Miami who said he had a THEORY that he wasn’t paying off the cops (and by the way, two things can be true — one can pay off the mob by paying tribute to them for running an underage girl as a prostitute in his bar and also not pay off the cops … and that’s if this one guy’s THEORY was true). The conviction was not overturned on appeal. He was convicted and did hard time. End of. Just because he denied it does not make him innocent, lol.

    BTW, the accounts I have read say he not only had the underage girl (like 14 years old … that’s sick) running as a prostitute in his bar (so I guess he had little girls running around there without his knowledge and never thought to card her?), he also introduced her to customers — so he was facilitating the enterprise. If you condone that, it’s beyond sickening.

    He handed over businesses to the mob (which you admit) … my guess (no way to prove it) is that he had some outstanding debts. But you make him a hero for practically giving businesses to the mob when in fact it shows a coziness to the mob that he would do so.

    Onto your next point: LaMotta was the far greater weight bully than Graziano. He fought welterweights while outweighing them by 16 pounds. Graziano usually weighed around 152 while Jake, a light heavyweight in a large amount of his fights (more by far than the number of fights where he actually made 160) was often 164-167 when fighting these smaller men. Yes, Jake, your hero, made his bones by beating up welters while he was a light heavyweight. That’s simple fact. The weights are recorded.

    As for the mob’s control of boxing, yes, it’s ’to the extend they did.’ You might not have noticed, but it’s a world sport. Was then, is now. The mob didn’t control every single fight that ever took place. It didn’t control the outcome of all said fights. It controlled a considerable portion of the upper end of the sport, but it did not control the entirety of the sport.

    Tons of fighters, not just in the U.S. but abroad, made a good living in boxing without ever being touched by the mob. Not everyone took the Jake/Graziano/Basillio route.

    You’ve claimed that every champ through fights for the mob and I asked you for specifics. Your answer was ‘of course there is proof.’ I ask again — was Jake the only guy who had to throw a fight for the mob to get a title shot? If so, which fights did Jake’s own title challengers throw to get those shots? Which ones did all the other champs and challengers fix? If you’re going to assert it without proof, you realize that’s just you saying it and it carries no weight, right?

    I’ve backed everything I’ve said about Jake — except where I’ve made clear it’s conjecture, like maybe Jake owed money to the mob and that’s why he turned over his businesses, but it could be for other reasons — by facts (his own weights when fighting welters vs. theirs) and testimony (linked in this very thread exactly what he said under oath). Yours is all suppositions and theories. They fit the narrative because they made a movie about Jake that people buy as gospel truth, but that don’t make it so.

    Next you’re going to start in on the part where he and Vikki talked on the phone and tell us that proves he didn’t beat her.
  15. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    Point by point:

    1) The jury convicted LaMotta. Some alleged conversation with a lawyer who was DA at a later time (from one of your own posts on another thread) that you claim to have a tape of does not absolve nor vacate that conviction. It doesn’t turn it over on appeal. Per your own post in another thread, he said it was his THEORY.

    Jake was convicted of trafficking a 14-year-old girl. That’s the fact. Nothing has changed that fact.

    2) Go read the testimony. Jake in his interview with the DA agreed that Milo was the guy he wanted to hear it from that he was going to get a title fight if he threw the Fox fight and said Daly and Palermo were names he heard from his brother — but did NOT say it was about the fix but about making the Fox fight (Fox was their fighter). He did NOT say that they were in on the fix. He kept deflecting to ‘my brother would know, I didn’t want to know any names.’ It’s all there in the testimony, and he came back and said later in testimony before the committee that he never heard their names in association with the fix.

    Were they involved? Certainly. But (a) LaMotta didn’t name them, he answered questions about hearing their names; and (b) he said that was associated with making the fight, not the fix. He also outright denied meeting with Palermo.

    Death threats? Funny, he was asked repeatedly about threats and said he had not been threatened, nobody asked him to change his testimony, and that he wasn’t afraid of those ‘rats’ and ‘bums.’ Wanted to disassociate himself from the mob because he saw he was getting tied to them and wanted to keep his ‘I fought the mob’ reputation.

    3) Joey was Jake’s manager. Joey was tied with the mob. He did business with the mob. He was later in the mob-controlled pinball/vending business. So yes Joey is a part of this.

    4) DiCarlo wasn’t just a guy who happened to move to Miami. He was a mob guy (Jake hates the mob, according to you, remember) and Jake testifies they became good friends. Why is the guy who hates the mobs suddenly good friends with a mobster? And not just a mobster, but a mobster who was in on the boxing business.

    5) You know the story you want to believe. Read the testimony.
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