Fighters you think should not be considered great which are commonly accepted as by the majority.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Journeyman92, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Resident Gadfly Full Member

    Sep 22, 2021
    My thoughts exactly. Just because they fought in the 70s doesn't mean everything they did was special.
    cross_trainer likes this.
  2. Garrus

    Garrus Big Boss 1935-2014 Full Member

    Aug 27, 2010
    I always figured the majority view of Norton was a pretty good boxer, maybe even very good but a clear non-great.
    Rakesh and Journeyman92 like this.
  3. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Oct 22, 2015
    I never understood the Johnson love and mythical greatness. While I understand you're view on Tyson there is caveat. He did beat the top competition available before he went to prison. Personally I agree with Emmanuel Steward on that the reflexes pace and head movement he had early in his career, he wouldn't be able to keep as he aged ( Not verbatim)
    And as he aged it slowed just as he said it would.
    But Tyson from 85-89 would be extremely dangerous for any heavyweight in history. And would be most.
    I agree with you view on Canelo, I've said it many times.
    I would add Mayweather Jr. At welterweight where he's grossly overrated. (Mayweather Jr. Fans, please Don't lynch me, at Jr.lightweight he's one of the best I've seen, so yes he is a great fighter,but not at welterweight)
    Another I will add is Jack Dempsey, his legend is overrated, especially when considering he wouldn't or couldn't fight some of the best fighters available because of their race.
    I also agree with your view on Tyson Fury. Who's greatness is because of a very weak group of challengers.
    And don't get me started on Wilder lol.
    Smokin Bert likes this.
  4. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Resident Gadfly Full Member

    Sep 22, 2021
    I am not sure on that one. The majority I have spoken to have this idea he is an unheard of ATG who never got the respect was robbed by Ali ect, ect. The majority opinion here might be the same as yours but I think the casual fan base has a different image of Kenny.
  5. Garrus

    Garrus Big Boss 1935-2014 Full Member

    Aug 27, 2010
    Oh yeah the casual view is cheeks. But that's in all sports :lol:
    Journeyman92 likes this.
  6. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Well-Known Member Full Member

    Apr 29, 2020
    Wow, didn't see this coming !! for me Monzon ( no need to quote stats , we all know them ) is in my top 3 MWs along side SRR, Greb and of course Hagler, put them how you want , he might be 2 or 4 anyhow if a fighter is in this bracket ( I would imagine almost all buffs have him in this quartet ) surely he warrants being called a ATG no ? for example Wilde is in the top 3, is he not a ATG, Olivares is in the top 3 is he not a ATG, Pep is in the top 3 is he not a ATG, etc, bud I am a huge fan, your posts are consistently top calibre, but on this we part company ( as friends ) keep well matey, chat soon.
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  7. Quick Cash

    Quick Cash Well-Known Member Full Member

    Jul 12, 2007
    Neither Norton nor Cotto is commonly accepted as a great. Norton is a historical persona because of the era he fought in, and how well he performed in that era. My own opinion is that he is a little underrated; he's pure poison for classical boxers his own size. Cotto, too, is a tremendous fighter. He gave Floyd all he could handle.
    Rakesh likes this.
  8. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    Oscar DelaHoya, he was very good. Lost his biggest fights. Had the Media on his side, just get there. A great star no question.
  9. Bronze Tiger

    Bronze Tiger Boxing Addict Full Member

    Jun 23, 2018
    He’s overrated to me in a pound for pound sense...When I look at a lot of top 100 lists ...I usually see Carlos Monzon in the top 15 ....that’s too high for me
    Flash24 likes this.
  10. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    Aslo beat Greb, didn't he? And Carpentier.

    Levinsky, Risko, and Gibbons are also solid names.
  11. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Oct 22, 2015
    Camacho was one of the most talented boxers I've seen in my over 40yrs of watching and involved in the sport .
    But as in the case of many fighters that had ATG talent, that alone does not make a fighter ATG. Desire, will, dedication, are just as important. See Marvin Hagler and Joe Frazier as proof.
    Smokin Bert and roughdiamond like this.
  12. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Full Member

    Jun 9, 2007
    Agree with all your points except I'm a Dempsey man and I feel it was Kearns that ruined his prime going for the vaudeville and movie rout for the quick buck.
  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Well-Known Member Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    Love Ken Norton.

    Great fighter when he remained upright. He was oversimplified as a stylistic nightmare for Ali but really, he could be and was a nightmare for anyone who couldn’t put him out in short order. That brings it to Norton’s chin, which of course he could not help, which may or may not preclude him from being rated as a great fighter. He seemed to take a good shot from anyone not named Foreman, Shavers or Cooney. Give Norton Ali’s chin and then what have you got?

    Monzon indeed a great fighter but a fighter who might not necessarily impress you on your initial viewings. No flash but so effective and workman like. Fought 15 rds like a great golfer managing himself with the full 18 holes in view.. At age 36 no less, bounced up from an absolute, on the button, right hand from proven puncher Valdes and turned back his lethal lethal challenge otherwise. Imagine dropping someone like that only to see them rise just as quickly. Quite the psychological blow landed early in the fight.
    Mike Cannon and Rakesh like this.
  14. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Feb 26, 2009
    Hector lost motivation after Rosario. and I get that,but had he fought the top guys and beaten Chavez who was moving up and won a rematch with Rosario and won other fights at lightweight that would have meant a lot.. He started to fight stay busy fights until he later fought the old Durans and Leonards, and lost to Tito and Oscar. And really lost badly to Chavez when he was near Chavez age.
  15. Claw4075

    Claw4075 Ezzard Charles GOAT Full Member

    Aug 27, 2021
    Sonny "The Ugly Bear" Liston. This hype job has an absolutely s##t resume littered with ONLY bums, small men and nobodies. Not a SINGLE great opponent beaten by him and his best win against Patterson was very questionable, given Patterson himself wasn't an ATG, had a glass jaw and was literally 180lbs in the fight. He had ONE title defense against the same light heavyweight he destroyed and then quit twice against a greener than grass Clay even with loaded gloves.

    Early in his career he lost to a nobody by the name of Marty something, and nearing the end he got brutally clipped by Leotis something.
    People say how he was the physically strongest boxer ever, hardest jab ever, longest reach ever, beautiful boxer ever,
    granite chin, this that but these are nothing but fabricated made up BS.

    George Foreman backed up against Liston in sparring so what ? He's imposing his physical strength against a greener than grass Foreman who just started boxing, and when Foreman hit his prime, he was twice as strong as Liston was and would've murdered him.

    Intimidation ? He scared exclusively small men due to his relation with the Mafia, and nothing else. In comparison, Mike Tyson scared the absolute hell out of gigantic 6'5 x 240lbs behemoths. Remember when Tyson traumatized Michael Spinks ? Liston never ever scared someone to that degree, even if they were a heavyweight or not. Tyson's style was something you'd see in nightmares; insanely fast, could take a punch, ridiculously hard hitting and technically skilled. Liston was none of these and learnt how to box in a prison. Now who's the more intimidating ?

    People say that don't judge Liston by the Ali fights, but, how in the actual hell aren't we supposed to judge a boxer by their best opponent ? Liston literally failed to beat Clay with loaded gloves and called it quits in both fights. His so called "piston" jab was rendered useless by Clay's head movement.

    His power became nonexistent given he's going against a genuinely good HW for the first time. His so called "granite chin" was never tested against a genuine power puncher (Cleveland Williams was a tomato can, nothing more nothing less).

    If he actually didn't take a dive in the second Ali fight and got KO'd by Ali who was featherfisted, then Mike Tyson and George Foreman might decapitate him. His fame is the result of Tyson, Foreman and Ali's remarks on him and his mob ties. Given that so many of Liston's feats have no credible sources, people have started to literally make things up in order to fuel the hype surrounding him. He shouldn't be ranked in the top 50 let alone top 10 or 5 :cursing:.

    TLDR; I'm sorry Listonites, but Sonny "The Ugly Bear" Quitston was an absurdly overrated hype job that crushed exclusively tomato cans and was brought to fame by Foreman, Ali and Tyson and his mob ties.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021