Finally Chuvalo vs Cleveland Williams on youtube

Prime Williams waa strong physically and he was good enough to outbox Chuvalo. I wouldn't be sure about that outcome, but Williams by decision sounds fair.

 

Terrell wasn't a good fighter with great durability?

Alonzo Johnson was also very durable, having gone the distance (and beaten some of these men) with Valdez, Miteff, Folley, Lavorante, Ali, Machen, among others. He went into his bout with Williams a young 27 year old, having never been stopped. Here's how he faired
"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook."

 

Alonzo Johnson was stopped 5 times in relatively short career. I wouldn't use this as an example of good durable fighter. Terrell is the only one that fits that bill but one fight is not much for someone who's considered such a powerful hitter.

 

Johnson was only stopped AFTER Williams beat him. In other words, Williams ruined him. This is evident by the fact that the next two men who stopped him were men he easily went the distance with and/or beat. He never won another fight after losing to these two men, getting beaten and even knocked out by no names. That doesn't take away that prior to facing Williams, Johnson was seen as a young, durable, up and comer, having given Miteff all he could handle in a close fight, going the distance with one of the hardest punchers of the era in Valdes, taking his best punches, and coming out on top.

 

Fair enough, are there any other notable stoppages in Williams career? Because so far, I don't see anything to call him better at knocking out durable fighters than Max Schmeling for example, let alone Foreman (whose work on Chuvalo you compare to).

 

Other than Miteff, Terrell, and Johnson, he also was the only person to stop a Young Jack Johnson which eluded the likes of Terrell (who he faced 2X right before Williams), Mildenberger, London, Rischer, Charles, Folley, Marshall, among others. The latter three of whom (Ezzard Charles, Marty Marshall, and Zora Folley) he actually had victories over! Though it should be noted this was Johnson's final fight.
He was also only the third person to stop Sonny Banks who owns the claim of being the first person to knock down Muhammad Ali. The only two people who stopped Banks prior were Ali, and Johnson. In his very next fight, Banks ended up dying.
Also their's Curlee lee, who was undefeated (minus a very fishy SD which was later avenged) and was coming off a win against Howard King, whom he stopped faster than Liston did. Lee was battered, knocked out, and suffered incurable brain damage from this fight which led to him murdering his family.

He also knocked out the feared John Holman, a fierce puncher with a list of very impressive knockout victims which one could make a case is among the best of those who never won the title (though I believe Holman was also in his last fight).

Ezzard Charles, Elmer Ray, Cesar Brion, Boardwalk Billy Smith, Bob Satterfield, Willie Bean, Larry Watson, Julio Mederos.

Fair point. Williams' power has been compared favorably to that of Liston's and Foreman's based upon common oppenents testimonies. That alone would make him a decent contender to stop Chuvalo. Chuvalo also wasn't exactly a defensive master to say the least... I could see him getting caught against a peak Williams and not really recovering and getting mercilessly battered until the ref steps in not to dissimilar to his losses against Foreman and Frazier.

 

Miteff wasn't that durable, he was stopped by almost all top fighters.

That's not true, Johnson was stopped 3 times in his career.

Banks was also stopped at the beginning of his career, so no Williams was 4th. Again, I don't see any reason to praise Williams for stopping Banks.

I mean, that's cool but Lee was nothing special. He never accomolished anything worth of mentioning.

Holman was stopped 6 times before Williams fight (in short career) and as you said, it was his last fight. Again - he wasn't hard to stop.
Also, you overrate him a lot. What makes him so special? Beating shot and washed up Charles? Losing a series to very beatable Satterfield?

You didn't mention anyone worth mentioning here to be honest.

Funny enough, most fighters pick the hardest hitters among those who lost against them. Liston and Foreman were much better at stopping his opponents, so if Williams really had more power, he was terrible at using it.

Foreman stopped Chuvalo because he had enough strength to push him around like a ragdoll. He also busted Chuvalo's face badly with his jab. Williams never proved to be as strong and he definitely didn't have Foreman's jab. I won't even compare Frazier to Williams, Cleveland wouldn't pressure Chuvalo with the same agression and workrate even in his dreams. Williams was a plodder, not even remotely comparable to Frazier style-wise.

Chuvalo took bombs from punchers or Williams caliber and stayed on feet. Frazier and Foreman were different caliber of fighters.

 

hate to bring it up, but he stopped Terrell, and Terrell was known for his durability which is obvious in the films

 

Yes, I forgot that he stopped him in the first fight when I wrote it. Fully admit that, it's a good stoppage over durable contender. That's the only example though and the rest swagdelfadeel mentioned just don't impress me.

 

Well, Williams only has a few good knockout wins, but saying that several of his best wins (like over Billy Daniels fi) went to the judges does not always work if you analyze styles, rather than records and accomplishments.

 

I will never for the life of me understand this pocket cult around Williams. Its downright comical the second and third raters trotted out that Williams stopped to prove his supposed legendary power. Get real. When a pre prime unrated Terrell is the best stoppage on your record (and he was stopped on his feet, not counted out) and the level of guys you stopped drops precipitously from there it says a lot about how overrated your power is. And frankly, for those touting Terrell's supposed durability, you guys have no clue what you are talking about. Terrell was dropped several times throughout his career and in the amateurs. He wasnt so much durable as he was difficult to get to given his height, reach and style and the fact that once inside, or hurt he had no compunction about clinging to his opponent like a leech, hence his nickname "the octopus". He was difficult to stop because he was difficult to get to, not because he was made of steel. He wasnt. He wasnt chinny, but he could be dropped and hurt and it didnt take a legendary puncher to do it either.

 

How come the prime, legendary Ali had him in a world of trouble and helpless in the 7th, and who knocked out Liston, Bonavena, and Foreman couldn't floor Terrell after pounding him with over 20 good shots?
Telling people to "get real" about their opinions is ridiculous. It's my opinion and that of some others that Williams was a great fighter. Perhaps seriously under accomplished, but a great fighter nonetheless. That is not a fact, it is an opinion. There are even more who believe he was not a great fighter, and that's mostly based on his accomplishments rather than his ability. Again, opinion rather than fact. Therefore, telling people to "get real" on something than cannot be anything other than opinion is absurd.

 

I agree, we need more threads on Folley and Machen among others and less on Cleveland Williams and Chuvalo.

 

To suppress the notion that Williams was anything more than he actually was, which was a can crusher that routinely failed in his biggest matchups both pre and post gun shooting.

 

Williams is not a great fighter in terms of abilities either though... unless you have very loose definition of "great fighter". I mean, he's clearly worse than Ron Lyle and nobody would ever call Lyle a great fighter