Finally Chuvalo vs Cleveland Williams on youtube

I think Lyle was tougher and more mobile, but agree with everything else you said. I think they both deserve the ranking in the top 50 heavyweights imo, but in the lower half.

 

There he goes again swagdelfadeel, Ali stopped Alonzo Johnson now. I didn't know you could knock somebody out and win a UD at the same time.

 

I compared Williams to a couple of other contenders. This is a list of KO'd opponents who were listed in the NBA's quarter ratings at heavy or light-heavy. *light-heavyweight ratings

Cleveland Williams--60 KO's in 94 fights
John Holman, Alex Miteff, Ernie Terrell, Alonzo Johnson, Young Jack Johnson, Kirk Barrow*, Roger Rischer

Turkey Thompson--39 KO's in 72 fights
Johnny Romero*, Junior Munsell, Buddy Knox, Pat Valentino, Gus Dorazio, Eddie Blunt, Elmer Ray, Kid Riviera, Lee Q Murray, Johnny Haynes

Lee Savold--72 KO's in 143 fights
Ford Smith, Tom Kenneally, Maurice Strickland, Arne Andersson, Bob Nestell, Lou Brooks, Buddy Knox, Lou Nova, Bill Poland, Johnny Flynn, Nate Bolden*, Lem Franklin, Eddie Blunt, Kid Riviera, Bob Garner*, Buddy Walker, Bruce Woodc-ck

Williams KO'd 7 ever rated fighters. He had 7 KO's. His best KO victim was Ernie Terrell.

Thompson KO'd 10 ever rated fighters. He had 12 KO's. His best victim was Elmer Ray.

Savold KO'd 17 ever rated fighters. He had 19 KO's. His best victim was Lou Nova.

I just did this to emphasize for Williams' defenders why their position draws controversy. Just on punching power, here are two contenders who have longer and I think more impressive lists of KO victims. They are rarely brought up though on lists of great punchers, nor of top heavyweights. Nino Valdes would be another one.

 

A flat out lie. https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9369 As you can see here, Johnson had 24 wins to 18 losses (the majority of which came after Williams ruined him). I understand that you never got past the 3rd grade, but even you should be able to know how to count.
He was also a LHW! [/QUOTE]
Another lie. He fought primarily in the 180s and 190s, only going down to the 170s once in his career, where the scales were suspected to be and most likely were off.

But were they able to stop him in those bouts, let alone in the first round without catching any return fire as Williams did?

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You do realize all these things you're lying about can be easily exposed on film? Ali scored a flash knockdown which was more due to exhaustion then anything as even the commentator notes "Johnson is exceptionally tired".

Untrue. Less than 4 months prior to fighting Williams, he'd defeated Todd Herring rather handily ad the following year, he was knocked out by Herring, a fighter whom as mentioned before, he defeated handily.

Lol

He was only knocked out by Machen AFTER Williams ruined him. Previously he went the distance with a prime Machen, and put up a good fight. The Machen he faced in the return was not the same man (ironically also as a result of his match against Williams which led to a mental breakdown). Not only could Johnson not defeat, he couldn't even last the distance this time against an inferior Machen.

Tell that to Valdez, Whitehurst, Dejohn, King etc.

Valdez was still a hard puncher when he lost to Johnson as in his very next fight, he gave a peak Liston a run for his money, shut his eye and was up on the card of one judge and only behind a round on the other 2 before being stopped.

and again knocked by Charlie Powelll!
He was very past his best and Johnson win over him is nothing good for record! [/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying Valdez was in his prime. He wasn't shot to smithereens however,

Funny Charles supposedly said that considering he knocked Satterfield tf out, and was defeated in a one-sided manner by Valdez (who defeated him much easier than Marciano ever could).

Moore also got away with a controversial decision over Valdes that many thought he lost.

 

Which one? I've never heard it before.

 

The rematch in which Braddock was the referee.

 

The difference being these are not the accurate figures for actual
ko's,stoppages yes ,but not count outs.
Those figures are as follows
Savold 48kos in142 fights.
Williams 44kos in 94 fights.
They look a bit different now don't they.

 

Multiple people, including the Associated Press scored the fight for Williams. The first thread is a discussion, about the fight.

Your second link consisted of one poster scoring the fight for Terrell by one round.

I assume you mean Foreman also ranked Cooney and LYLE above Williams which isn't true. He listed Gerry Cooney, Ron Lyle, and Cleveland Williams in no particular order

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so this is more disingenuous and intentionally misleading (if not outright lying) nonsense from you.
He maybe said Williams above Liston but said Liston was the only man wjo could back him up and he was the strongest man he ever met along with Lyle! [/QUOTE]
Are you really this ****ing stupid to plagiarize posts on THE SAME FORUM IN WHICH YOU POST? Your dishonesty knows no bounds. Absolutely shameless and despicable. Everyone can see here that you blatantly stole your posts from @choklab.

Oh and in case you accuse me of making this up, here's the thread for everybody to see. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/cleveland-williams-hit-harder-than-sonny-liston.544051/ Absolutely disgraceful! You are the most dishonorable poster on these boards second to none. If it wasn't for the fact that I love humiliating you, I would not engage you at all.

 

This is an interesting take. Several reactions. One, I'm not certain I agree with the premise about count outs, although a count out is clearly a very decisive knockout. But what about a fight like Dempsey and Willard? Is this a lesser stoppage?

Take Max Baer, as an example, looking at his record, I think almost all his major victories were not count outs. PrImo Carnera, Max Schmeling, Tony Galento, Pat Comiskey, and Tuffy Griffiths were TKO's. All but Griffiths are on film, and all these opponent were not counted out. Baer's actual count out wins against good men would be Tom Heeney (a quick count by referee Dempsey), Ben Foord, and Hank Hankinson. Ernie Schaaf was saved by the bell and so a decision win. King Levinsky was an exhibition.

What is ironic about raising count outs as a standard is that it might hurt Williams most when we compare ranked opponents, which was what I was doing. Williams had a tremendous early record of count outs of preliminary fighters, but what about ever rated fighters whom he managed to stop:

Cleveland Williams
Count out KO's--John Holman, Alonzo Johnson, Kirk Barrow, Roger Rischer
TKO's--Ernie Terrell, Alex Miteff, Young Jack Johnson
So 4 fighters and 4 count out KO's. The best? I guess Alonzo Johnson. Take your pick. Terrell & Miteff were not counted out.

Turkey Thompson
Count out KO's--Johnny Romero (1), Buddy Knox, Elmer Ray, Johnny Haynes
So 4 fighters and 4 count out KO's. His best victim Elmer Ray was counted out in the first.

Lee Savold
Count out KO's--Ford Smith, Tom Kenneally, Maurice Strickland, Bob Nestell, Lou Brooks, Bill Poland, Johnny Flynn, Lem Franklin (2), Lou Nova, Eddie Blunt, Kid Riviera, Bob Garner, Buddy Walker
So 13 fighters and 14 count out KO's. His best victim Lou Nova was counted out in their second fight.

This standard really makes Savold look like the biggest puncher of the bunch.

 

Another lie. He fought primarily in the 180s and 190s, only going down to the 170s once in his career, where the scales were suspected to be and most likely were off.
But were they able to stop him in those bouts, let alone in the first round without catching any return fire as Williams did?

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You do realize all these things you're lying about can be easily exposed on film? Ali scored a flash knockdown which was more due to exhaustion then anything as even the commentator notes "Johnson is exceptionally tired".


Untrue. Less than 4 months prior to fighting Williams, he'd defeated Todd Herring rather handily ad the following year, he was knocked out by Herring, a fighter whom as mentioned before, he defeated handily.


Lol


He was only knocked out by Machen AFTER Williams ruined him. Previously he went the distance with a prime Machen, and put up a good fight. The Machen he faced in the return was not the same man (ironically also as a result of his match against Williams which led to a mental breakdown). Not only could Johnson not defeat, he couldn't even last the distance this time against an inferior Machen.

Tell that to Valdez, Whitehurst, Dejohn, King etc.


Valdez was still a hard puncher when he lost to Johnson as in his very next fight, he gave a peak Liston a run for his money, shut his eye and was up on the card of one judge and only behind a round on the other 2 before being stopped.


and again knocked by Charlie Powelll!
He was very past his best and Johnson win over him is nothing good for record! [/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying Valdez was in his prime. He wasn't shot to smithereens however,


Funny Charles supposedly said that considering he knocked Satterfield tf out, and was defeated in a one-sided manner by Valdez (who defeated him much easier than Marciano ever could).

Moore also got away with a controversial decision over Valdes that many thought he lost.[/QUOTE]
Machen was feather-fisted makes hyperbole of the day.

 

Just like his claim that Bruno was feather fisted

 

lol that is hilarious! I haven't heard something that funny in a long time. The guys calling him feather-fisted are all the guys laying on their backs on the floor: Cummings, Coetzee, Williams, Ferguson....

 

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You copied this from a youtube comment! How low can you go kid? This is getting downright embarrassing.