Finished watching prime Muhammad Ali and here was my take away

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by NewChallenger, Jan 21, 2023.


  1. NewChallenger

    NewChallenger Member Full Member

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    We all love the Greatest.

    This man is the most talented man in heavyweight history in terms of physicality and athletism. BUT,and we will get to that

    PROS ( oh god the pros):
    * FEET
    - Now what I took away, this man in his prime was the fastest heavyweight of all time on his feet. His ability to move around the ring was ridicolous. Him dancing around the ring did not truly start until after his fight with Liston the 1st time I felt. I wonder if he picked up on the idea when he was running backwards and doging from Liston in the first 1 minute of the first fight. Because most of the time before that he would stand infront of the guy sticking his head out moving away from punches and during the 2nd Liston fight that is when he would start moving around the ring. The best display to show how he didn't dance before the Liston fight, is watch his 1st and 2nd fight with Cooper. Then you will see the change,

    *HANDS
    - This man's hand speed is ******ed,this is best displayed in his knockout of Brian London. Although I think Mike Tyson and Patterson are in the conversation.

    *STAMINA
    QUESTION: Do you think Ali's stamina was overrated?(And by overrated I mean he was had the best stamina of the heavyweight history) Because he did not dance for a full 15 rounds like people claim,but more like 10. And he would usually just stop infront of the guy and look at him pulilng back from punches.
    - One of the best simply,look at how long he dance

    * RECOVERY
    - His ability to recover was pretty insane when Banks and Cooper knocked him down as he walked back to his corner after a knockdown.

    *REFLEXES/RANGE
    - This man must have been psychic, there is no way reflexes like that are for real. Also I feel his sense of space and range helped a lot as he could see the punches coming easier this way.

    *PSYCHOLOGY
    - Now I'm not talking about the trash talking. This part of him was underrated as hell. What I am talking about is,this guy ,knew what he was doing to destroy his opponents psychology. He would move around the ring and make the opponent miss everything. One thing the opponent would resort to would just chase him around the ring then occasionally throw halfassed aggression. I remember Terell,Patterson,Foley almost looked by body language like they were giving up after the first few rounds based on body language and just got frustrated and jumped forward trying to land but missed. He made these fighters feel completly helpess.

    Most of my cons he actually patched up during his prime, please read this,this was very facinating to watch.

    PATCHED CONS:

    *JAB
    - He didn't really have a solid jab at the beginning of his career. This started to get better at the 2nd Liston fight, it wasn't very authorative before then and it started to get really good in the Patterson fight.

    -COUNTER
    He would pull back A LOT but he never capetilzed on it properly. UNTIL his 2nd Liston fight, this was when I felt he really and truly started to use it and I was so hpapy.

    * LEFT HOOK
    - A lot of people say he was susceptible to left hooks. I do agree in the beginnig of his career,because when he would pull back, the range of a jab and a cross is easier to gauge. But leaning back from a left hook is harder because it is outside your field of vision. HOWEVER if you watch the 1st cooper fight, he is super stationary which is what allowed him to get hit a lot. Then you watch the 2nd Cooper fight and he barely got hit,because this is when he started dancing. Simply beautiful.

    CONS THAT DIDN'T GET PATCHED:

    *OFFENSE
    - He really lacked an offense in my opinion, most of his fights were mostly won on defense and ring generalship,he would land clean punches,but I just felt he wasn't busy enough in the punching department ( He still won pretty much every round he was in).

    * MAIN WEAKNESS
    - When he would remain stationary ,which I feel he did because he was conserving energy (he would just stare at the guy not throwing any punches) which was replaced by the rope-a-dope in the 2nd career. He would get hit A LOT by Zora Foley's overhand rights. Like just watch the fight, he would get hit some when he was dancing,but e could lean back from those, when he was stationary and would lean back, he wouldn't get out of the way.

    In Conclusion:
    In his prime,this was the most complete fighter I think at heavyweight. Dancing for 15 rounds, FASTEST FEET at heavyweight, FASTEST REFLEXES ,One of the FASTEST HANDS at heavyweight. It is the most beautiful thing to watch at heavyweight. It almost looks like a classic stage performance of sorts
     
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  2. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He really lacked an offense? he stopped:
    George Foreman
    Sonny Liston
    Joe Frazier
    Oscar Bonavena
     
  3. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    plus, how about that right hand that basically stopped prime Ron Lyle?
     
  4. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Underrated puncher. To some here he was Chris Byrd. I'd be interested in "expert" opinions but on his worst day he was an average puncher and he threw punches in bunches, some out of nowhere like the big rights against Liston, Bonavena, and Ron Lyle.
     
  5. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It was a left hook that lead to him stopping Bonavena.

    Liston went down but that had nothing to do with Ali's right hand.
     
  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Pretty sure when he said "prime" Ali he is only watching and talking about his pre-exile exploits.

    I'd fully agree the supposed offensive deficiency is grossly overstated even for pre/exile.
     
  7. Bronze Tiger

    Bronze Tiger Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He didn’t seem too interested in body punching
     
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  8. Fogger

    Fogger Father, grandfather and big sports fan. Full Member

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    Bums, all of them bums! :)
     
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  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You can find his pull counter as early as this 1961 fight
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    He actually counters the jab with a right uppercut to the body in this fight as well. Something I haven't seen him do later.

    And against the 22 lbs heavier Miteff in another early fights he actually does some slugging and body punching.
     
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  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think you make some good points when comparing Ali of Cooper 1 in 1963 and Cooper 2 in 1966. The same difference is visible when comparing the fight against Jones in 1963 and the exhibition fight against him in 1966.

    Ali developed his classic movements between these fights and also matured physically, of course. I think he put his punches together better and had more on them (as you would expect with the physical maturity).

    As for technique, you're right about the deficencies in general. But what often gets lost is the things he did very well. He was a tremendous combination puncher for one thing, something that for example Walcott expressed his admiration for. For a HW he was also ahead of his time with doubling or even tripling up not only on his jabs but also hooks, uppercuts and even straight rights. Same with the jab to the body and check hooks as well as his lead right.

    He did skip some fundamentals but had a very developed upper end toolbox.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  11. Showstopper97

    Showstopper97 The Icon Full Member

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    Pretty good analysis all round - (except about offense IMO). However, there is some credence to that, as Ali couldn't fight all that well on the inside & didn't have body punching in his arsenal. You could say Ali could only really fight one way - & that was primarily on the outside & at mid-range.
     
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  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think that "did" gets a bit confused with "could" here. Not saying he was a HW Duran or Chavez in any way, but if you check the Miteff fight you will see some body punching with intent and some slugging. And in Quarry 2 and especially Frazier 3 he shows off his inside fighting as well.
     
  13. NewChallenger

    NewChallenger Member Full Member

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    **** I forgot, also his uppercut seemed a bit lacking too
     
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  14. Charles White

    Charles White Chucker Full Member

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