Fireman Flynn KO 1 Jack Dempsey

Dempsey was just a local level fighter at the time, while Flynn was a name fighter, albeit one whose best days were well behind him.

It was far from clear how Dempsey's career would pan out at this stage.

It is plausible that the fight might be fixed, to put Flynn into a place where he could generate one more big pay day.

 

Not only that but at this point Dempsey wasnt considered to be on the fast track to a title and apparently the match was viewed as a relatively even contest to possibly even being a tough fight for Dempsey.

So by Flynn winning over a relative unknown they werent really going to boost his reputation.

By Dempsey losing there likely wasnt going to be a big betting coup because the odds probably werent very long if there was any betting at all.

In having Dempsey take a dive they were hurting the marketability of a local talent that the promoters could use to draw gates and hurting the chances of the only fighter of the two who had a POSSIBLY expectation of going further in the sport.

None of it adds up and again, the only mention of a fix came years later when people where trying to boost Dempsey and make him seem invincible and none of those stories jive with the facts as they were reported on the ground at the time.

As Ive said, it looks to me like it was just an embarrassing loss by a guy who hadnt hit his prime yet. I dont think it should be held against him because we all know 1. Dempsey was human and hit with the right punch anyone could be stopped and 2. prime for prime Dempsey slaughters Flynn.

 

Not really considering Flynn had been losing very VERY consistently for the past five years and not always to top guys. Furthermore this fight wasnt used as a springboard for Flynn. He had one more fight after Dempsey (which was already scheduled when he signed to face Dempsey as a replacement for Carl Morris) and he lost that fight before facing Dempsey in the rematch a year later and losing. Had they really tried to use this win to boost Flynn I could maybe MAYBE see that but there was no ballyhoo afterwards. Instead Flynn went back to being lost in Jack Curley's stable, being used as a journeyman stumblebum to fill out the odd fight date that came along.

 

I reckon Flynn just chinned him.

 

Oh come on, there is always a plausible explanation for a fix.

Wicked people will always look for crooked ways to gain advantage, sometimes even when the gain is minimal.

 

It's true.. there can always be a fix... I just don't think so in this case

 

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"it had to be renovated to change the entrance from one small door to two large doors in order to admit patrons"

The Fire Department's Hall originally had only one door? Interesting. Must not have been much of a fire code in those days.

The 1000 number could be enough if the promoter is using the old bait and switch trick. Tickets are advertised for $2 with $5 ringside, but the $2 turns out to be for a limited number of tickets, let's say in the balcony, and the vast bulk of the tickets on the main floor are $5. The $2 tickets go very quickly and so the patrons have no choice but to buy a $5 ticket or go home without seeing the fight. A guy who came down from Salt Lake City will most likely pay the extra price rather than simply turning around and going back. It is an old theatre trick.

If for example you had 50 balcony tickets at $2 and 950 "ringside" tickets at $5, you end up with a gross of $4850, close to the $5000 estimate.

 

"the author . . . was one of those opposed to the fight and as such has an interest in making it look worse than it was"

Possible, but going way beyond logical ballpark figures would simply weaken your case, wouldn't it?

"Why would the fire department complain about the guarantee after the fact if the fight did well at the gate?"

I don't agree with your logic here. If they expected, let's say, a gate of $2000 and that was the gate, why would they complain? But if they expected a $2000 gate and it turned out to closer to $5000, I can see them complaining.

To me, though, if they took a guarantee, they had nothing to complain about.

A larger gate might be due to many more $5 tickets being sold than they had expected.

 

Several books and documentaries... no real proof, doubt anybody has any. I really don't care, not a big Dempsey fan, or hater for that matter.

 

Solid post

 

The problem with your logic and that of the post above is that the newspaper reports make clear that the number of seats and cost associated with them was known ahead of time. It makes special mention that the seats are being fixed in a stationary position and all seats would be available for the corresponding "coupon." The idea that they pulled a "bait and switch" is supposition and unlikely. Again, if they had a set amount of $2 tickets and a set amount of $5 tickets then the promoters and the firemen would know how much the gate could be potentially. The only speculation would be if the gate would reach capacity or not. If not it would be less, obviously, so the fire department would have no cause to complain about the guarantee or that they had somehow been conned. Especially seeing as how it was the firemen themselves who renovated the hall to accommodate the extra door and ticket booths. They clearly had an idea or at least a hope that the show would do well.

 

When I described Jack Dempsey as a young club fighter or journeyman when he fought Fireman Jim Flynn for first time, I was not trying to say that Dempsey lacked the talent to be a top fighter. Instead, I was trying to describe Dempsey based on his accomplishments as a fighter up to that time.

Flynn was a contender during his prime years, but he wasn't nearly as good as Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette or Sam McVey at the time. As a result, I don't think that Flynn was close to being a top contender at any time. That was the reason that I said that Flynn was a fringe contender.

- Chuck Johnston

 

"newspaper reports make clear that the number of seats and cost associated with them was known ahead of time."

But apparently the total number of seats and the number at either price is not listed, or someone would quote these figures.

"supposition"

Totally. Just guessing, and probably a wrong guess.

But there is evidence the crowd was large.

Ogden Standard 2/13/1917 preview of fight

"according to Winsor the street car company has assured him of sufficient services to amply take care of all who intend to make the trip from this city. Many of the fans, however, have made arrangements to go in machines."

Later, and even more telling

"The special trains from Bingham and the southern part of the state, the former on the Rio Grande and the latter on the Orem line, would be held until a reasonable time after the bout."

TWO special trains! One from the "southern part of the state." This certainly implies there was a great deal of interest in this fight and fans were coming from quite a distance away.

After reading this, I think an attendance of 1200 to 1500 or even more is certainly very possible. The only issue is the size of the venue. But it is certainly possible this hall was a converted warehouse, or possibly a converted cattle barn (where the cattle would be kept in pens for a day or two before being shipped to the slaughter house). They had some giant barns like that in South St Paul when I was a kid. Such buildings could be big enough if converted to hold 1500 or more.

All speculation, of course.

Firemen complaining--Still don't see much reason for them to complain if they had a good idea of the gate going in. The only way it makes much sense is if the gate was much larger than they had first anticipated.

*I think on balance the evidence points to the $5000 gate probably being pretty accurate. That figure comes from a reporter on the scene who quotes the promoter on other issues, indicating he talked to the promoter. I see no reason for him to give a risible exaggeration. Two trains coming in from the hinterlands with fans points to a huge turnout. The possible size of the venue raises a valid objection, but not an overwhelming one.