Fireman Flynn KO 1 Jack Dempsey

I have two pictures of the hall. One on the inside (during a boxing match) and one on the outside. I will post them later but my desktop (Im on my laptop now) has a virus that is giving me problems. Anyway, the outside picture looks like a standard rural firehouse of the era (there is one of the same vintage in my grandmothers hometown). Its only shot from the front so you cant see how long it is but the width isnt very great. That being said the depth of these buildings is usually pretty long. The inside picture is less encouraging. The ring is up against one wall (meaning there was only seating on three sides) and the one wall you can see where there is seating only has a few rows of seats before you hit a wall. When you factor in the size of a ring, and seating on only three sides it wasnt a very big venue. But, maybe with the renovations they made more room (my photo predates the Dempsey-Flynn fight). I do believe you are correct about there being more than passing interest in the fight though because the ticket prices were high compared to other boxing events in the area at the time and there was still apparently a good turnout.

 

I will be looking forward to the photos.



*It seems odd that there would be two special trains with a small venue.

 

Forget I said double standards for this time only!

I see some consistency with you liking Johnson and Dempsey. They were both heavyweight champs who had problems with women, ducked their #1 title opponent while champion, and were starched early prior to winning the title.

 

I dunno. I guess it depends. Maybe our perception of small is different than their perception of small in regards to gate attractions at boxing events. I dont really know how big their average gates were. They couldnt have been too big because if they were that area would have drawn more marquee fights and it had hardly any. Indeed most fights in that area at that time were very small. So when you consider that a fight between a relative unknown in Jack Dempsey and a totally shot Jim Flynn was considered a big event it kind of gives you a perspective on just how starved for good fights those fans were. When I looked up ticket prices for other boxing matches around that time I saw ticket prices on the high end of 2 to 3 dollars and on the low end of .50 cents. You can definately get to a $5000 gate using several combinations of the $2 and $5 ticket price given the possible size of the building but my main point was that the size of the gate and the amount of the tickets seems awfully high for that time period and that era. For ticket prices to be that high for Dempsey Flynn it gives one the impression that it was anticipated (of course there is the firemans charity angle which was used to draw more to the gate and presumably charge more). This is why I say its entirely possible that given the renovations to the hall they somehow made more room for seating. Either way I dont think any of this points to a fix. Indeed I think it all points to what was perceived as an even match or a test for the young fighter and as such I would expect any betting odds (if there were any, remember mormons dont approve of gambling) to be fairly narrow (supposition on my part but a somewhat informed guess) thus making a betting coup on a fix unlikely.

 

"most fights in that area at that time were very small"

Off the ringside reports, boxing was illegal in Utah.

The sheriff apparently looked the other way for this one because it was a charity event for the firemen and skirted the law by being billed as an "exhibition."

"that area would have drawn more marquee fights"

boxing being illegal probably prevented that.

"how starved for good fights those fans were"

Follows if fights were illegal. And it also follows that what might appear as a second-tier fight between Dempsey and Flynn could look like a big deal to them.

*The record fight gate prior to the unique Johnson-Jeffries fight was Gans-Nelson in Goldfield, Nevada in 1906. The gate was $69,715. The population of Goldfield in 1910 off the census was 4838. The population of the entire state of Nevada in 1910 was 81,879, about two-thirds of the population of Salt Lake City alone in 1920.

**bottom line--I have no doubts after doing some research that a $5000 gate and a rather significant turnout, let's say 1500, certainly is well within reason. The big question is the size of the venue.

 

Boxing may have been "illegal" in Utah (and Im not convinced it was given the number of decision fights that took place there) but thats symantecs because whether it was illegal or not it in no way hampered fights taking place. This is what RECORDED boxing in Utah looked like in 1917:



1917-12-24 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-12-17 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-12-10 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-12-03 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-11-26 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-11-19 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-11-14 Wed Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-11-12 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-11-05 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-29 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-23 Tue Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-22 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-20 Sat Eagles Club, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-15 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-09 Tue Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-08 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-10-01 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-09-26 Wed Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-09-18 Tue Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-09-10 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-09-03 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-07-04 Wed Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-06-07 Thu Orpheum Theatre, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-05-18 Fri Magna, Utah, USA edit view


1917-05-15 Tue Orpheum Theatre, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-04-23 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-04-09 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-04-02 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-26 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-19 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-16 Fri Elite Athletic Club, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-12 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-09 Fri Black Hawk, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-09 Fri Owls Club, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-05 Mon Manhattan A.C., Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-03-02 Fri Alhambra Theater, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-26 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-19 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-15 Thu Alhambra Theater, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-13 Tue Trocadero Hall, Murray, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-12 Mon Brigham A. C., Brigham City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-12 Mon Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-09 Fri Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-02-02 Fri Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-30 Tue Eagles Club, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-24 Wed Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-17 Wed Armory, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-12 Fri Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-10 Wed Elite Athletic Club, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-05 Fri Grand Theater, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA edit view


1917-01-03 Wed Orpheum Theatre, Ogden, Utah, USA edit view

Boxing was illegal in New York as well but that didnt hurt its ability to see several marquee fights during this period. The bottom line is that Utah was a relative boxing backwater with little talent, low gates, low purses, and smaller venues.

 

I don't care for Johnson stylistically he is the complete antithesis of what I like in a fighter which is all out attack ie Dempsey.
I only defend Johnson when people propagate deliberate lies about him. I judge a fighter by what he does in the ring not the bedroom.

If only others could be as objective.:think

 

The law on boxing must have been very vaguely written, or it was ignored by the authorities.

Interesting info.

The stats also show that there was quite a bit of interest in boxing.

As for boxing being illegal, there are these quotes in the Deseret article posted earlier.

"in violation of the state statute"

"The sheriff said he had instructed his men to stop the fight if it became brutal or if it assumed the phase of a prize fight in violation of the law."

Certainly seems "prize fights" were illegal by state statute. Whether the law was enforced by local officials is problematic.

I would point out that under the radar small potatoes fights could perhaps get by as long as the local officials looked the other way or hid behind obscure parsing of "prize fight."

A really high profile fight might run the risk of bringing in state officials to enforce state law.

 

The judge him as using the color line, being mediocre in many matches, and offering lies or excuses in others. Oh wait, that would objective.:deal

 

Do you think you could do the poster who started this thread the courtesy of confining your posts to the subject in hand?

Jack Johnson has no connection with it whatsoever.

 

This isnt factually accurate because prize fights being illegal was the rule not the exception all over the united states. They were illegal in most states. This however didnt stop boxing from taking place. It just required the evolution of new standards. This is what brought forth the ND bouts and "athletic clubs" which were used to get around the ban on prize fighting. But again, the idea that boxing was illegal simply doesnt jive with the facts for this fight, particularly in light of the fact that decisions were allowed in Utah. I think the mere presence of numerous boxing matches held right in public in Utah's most populous area (and its state capital) illustrates pretty clearly that boxing wasnt being prohibited. "Prize fighting" may have been illegal but you run across constantly in those days the game of semantics whereby people denied that a boxing match which took place the night before was a "prize fight" call it what you want but I think we can agree that Jack Dempsey and Jim Flynn fought in a sanctioned boxing match which could be terminated by a KO or a decision after 15 rounds. There had been several other boxing matches that year in the area and the state and would be several more that year. "Prize fighting" may have been "illegal" but "boxing" clearly wasnt and there was no difference other than one name for an organized fight was associated with dregs of society and the other was associated with the much more honorable styling "the manly art of self defense." But, they were the same thing.

 

I already did. Its a legit KO, and added info that Dempsey's own brother threw in the towel.

 

I already knew that, Dempsey's brother was named Bernie I read it in Dempsey's first autobiography written with his step daughter Barbara Piatelli Dempsey. I first read it over 35 years ago, probably before you were hatched .I was browsing through it this week.
The fight was promoted by Fred Windsor.
Dempsey describes how , "several hundred fans rooted themselves hoarse for Flynn".

"From the minute the bell clanged ,I knew I was in trouble.I had made the mistake of not warming up properly.What a dumb oversight on my part-it was probably going to cost me the fight!

I should have shadowboxed in the back room! I should have done this ,and I should have done that!
I kept berating myself when bam! down I went.I barely managed to get up when crack! down again.I got floored a few times and the worst part of it was I knew it was my own fault!
I was just getting my second wind when Bernie threw the towel in"

Page 55 Jack Dempsey.


Dempsey blamed the loss on not warming up prior to the fight. I've already said I am prepared to accept the legitimacy of the ko in a couple of posts. You need park your agenda and actually comprehend and digest what people post.


ps No charge for the history lesson.:hi:

 

Dempseys’s brother throwing in the towel, could actually be interpreted as evidence for it being a fix. It would be a very unusual thing to do so early in the first round.

 

Possibly but is it so hard to accept that a young boxer gets caught cold by an old cagey veteran?
No one is a bigger admirer of Dempsey than I, but these things happen.