Fireman Flynn KO 1 Jack Dempsey

A completely objective, impartial POV, too.

 

:roll:

 

By it's definition, a POV can't be impartial, if you think about it.

 

S, I am on the side of the vast majority of sportswriters who in the 1950s
proclaimed Jack Dempsey as the best heavyweight they had ever seen up to that time. So if I defend Dempsey from the modern naysayers like you,
tell me who is the on shakier ground, I who honor the opinions of great boxing experts and ex fighters as Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling ,and a slew of trainers as Ray Arcel,
Whitey Bimstein, and others who touted his greatness, against your
"objective" opinion of the Manassa Mauler ? I can assure you Seamus I
am just as thoughtful as you when I give my opinion, and most surely
JUST as OBJECTIVE as you.....
P.S. And I am just as intelligent as you are when it comes to culling
the merits of fighters of the past. Yessir....

 

Preparing to respond to Janitor's above post, I re-read the three ringside reports printed on page 2 of this blog. I didn't notice this key line about the attendance in the first article when I previously read it, as it came when the author was discussing a preliminary fight and I was concentrating on the Flynn-Dempsey part.

"The boys fought in the same ring as the heavyweights. They fought and slugged away but being equipped with soft gloves neither was hurt, but despite this, there was the spirit of the occasion present and the thousands of fight rooters cheered wildly . . ."

"Thousands of fight rooters"

Despite my own doubts about the likely size of the venue, this ringside report puts the number present high enough to justify a $5000 gate. Well, he was there.

 

I dont see how anyone surmises from a towel being thrown in that the fight was fixed. Dempsey fans waffle back and forth looking for excuses. If a towel wasnt thrown then Dempsey took a dive. If a towel was thrown then it was a big conspiracy. Those who believe that nonsense need to just admit that they WANT to believe Dempsey couldnt be stopped legitimately by Flynn.

 

Its not that I don’t want to admit that Flynn beat Dempsey, I just don’t think that the available evidence allows for a definite conclusion.

I feel that your level of confidence in the result is unwarranted.

 

I don't understand how a dive is so easily dismissed based on the merits of ringside reports for a fight of such brevity. I would think ringside reports are better served telling the story of a match when the fight is fleshed out over a longer period of time. If there were no suspicions of Ali vs Liston 2 going into the fight and no cameras to record the event would the opinion of the bout be altered in the course of history. Or even a recent match such as Deontay Wilder vs Malik Scott. If the replays didn't show that his right cross positively missed the mark would the fight bare any suspicion at all?

 

Why would Jack Dempsey take a dive in the first bout with Fireman Jim Flynn? Was there that much betting on the bout?

- Chuck Johnston

 

The New York Times Archives have some info on Dempsey's manager A J Auerbach, a beauty parlor owner who befriended Dempsey in 1916. The print is deteriorated and difficult to read, but here are some excerpts as I interpret them. If someone can bring this article over and print it in full, especially if cleared up, thanks.
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1916-meets a hard up Dempsey. Loans him money and buys him new clothes.

Auerbach quoted

"Remember, he was still a minor and I made no contract with him to act as his manager. I accepted none of the money he earned, but on the contrary I gave him money.

"On August 22, 1916, shortly after Dempsey became 21, we entered into a contract where I would be his manager for five years, or unitl August 22, 1921. I was to arrange all his matches, handle his affairs, and in return receive a per cent of his earnings. I have a copy of that contract with me today.

"Things went along well until February of 1917, when Dempsey was knocked out by Jim Flynn in the first round of their contest at Salt Lake City.

"Dempsey was just a boy then, and that sudden possession of a considerable amount of money naturally went to his head. Some of his actions did not please me and I called him into my office and had a heart to heart talk with him, the result of the talk being that Jack and I parted.

"'Go and find yourself another manager to handle your affairs, and if you ever need any help you can call on me,' I advised Dempsey, for I like the boy if he did make mistakes, and I never lost interest in him."
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Auerbach went on to say he continued to make loans to Dempsey, eventually reaching $5540.50.

After winning the title Dempsey repaid Auerbach with $6126.30, the loans plus interest. Auerbach points out that Dempsey looked him up to make this repayment.

New York Times-July, 1919

*among the unreadable words were what per cent of Dempsey's earnings Auerbach got, so I just used "a" for that. Also the line "went to his . . ." did not include the last word. I assume "head."

 

A very interesting article. I advise anyone interested to go to the New York Times Archives and read it in full.
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In my judgment, this article provides support both for the view that the fight was honest and that it was a fix,

honest--Why would Dempsey be that hard up for money? He had a backer here who was willing to advance him what at the time was a great deal of money.

fix--Auerbach points to the Flynn-Dempsey fight as being pivotal in his dropping out as Dempsey's manager. This is certainly suspicious. But in this article he says nothing that directly points to a fix, only that Dempsey came into a lot of money and apparently couldn't handle it well. The money could have just been Dempsey's share of the gate, but suspicion is warranted, I think.

**Dempsey certainly was a murky character back then. Why this older man would simply give him such a great deal of money in loans might also ignite suspicions and speculation of all kinds. But it is hard to believe Dempsey was "starving" or even hard-up at this time.