Fireman Flynn KO 1 Jack Dempsey

Why does Auerbach dropping Dempsey after Flynn point to a fix? How many times have we seen a manager who had high hopes for his fighter suddenly become disgusted and drop him when he suffers a devastating knockout and might not be all the manager had hoped? Total speculation otherwise.

 

If taken at face value, and we have no reason to doubt what Auerbach says, it fits with the character (or lack thereof0 that Dempsey displayed later in his life.

1. Guy who had nothing comes into "a considerable amount of money" for the first time when Auerbach signs with him and lives it up since he's never had any money in his pocket before, loses focus, gets knocked out.

2. As champion, he comes into big, big money and celebrity, decides he likes being the life of the party more than he does fighting or trainining ... sits on the title, goes soft and isn't the same when he fights Tunney.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

Several extracts, from a series of articles by "Eye Witness" (the author being James O’Donnell Bennett) published in Chicago Tribune, and from the press coverage of the court hearings in June 1920.


1920-02-22 The Chicago Sunday Tribune (page II1)
"Story," echoes Hardy {Downing}, "there wasn't any story. It was a case of one punch and two dollars and a half. Dempsey just walked out and feinted with his left once, then drove in his right, and the Hanc ock boy went boom. It was over in twenty seconds.

"That was his beginning with me--and his real beginning in the fight game. Then he kept on fighting for me in 1915 and into 1916, just a pork and beaner--what we call a meal ticket fighter. From $2.50 he went up to $5, and then $7.50, and then $10, and then $15, and then $25--four round goes. Five hundred dollars for the fight with Dick Gilbert at the old Salt Lake theater where Maude Adams made her debut as a baby in arms was the first time I ever gave him any real money.




1920-02-26 The Chicago Daily Tribune (page 9)
"Jack had dependents a-plenty," said the beauty doctor. "Jack paid the bills anyway. He'd be training hard between those early fights and then maybe get $25 or $40, and next day he'd be broke from paying mother's grocery bill. Now you take the Flynn fight and all the grief it caused. That was the result of driving need, I tell you."

Then Al, too, mentioned a figure, just as Hardy Downing and John Derks had, and it tallied with theirs, and his comment was, "Of course, the boy had never seen $500 of which he or the family hadn't owed most. Jack spoke to me about these things once. He said, 'I tell you, Al, if I had my life to live over I'd never do that thing again.'"

All Square with Dempsey.

There was no venom in Al Auerbach's recital. "I had a contract with Jack," he said, "but it wasn't worth the paper it was written on and Jack doesn't owe me a cent. He cleaned up all he did owe me and had me to Toledo and paid everything--insisted on it--though I'm not a man that usually lets another pay my way. Why, my hotel bill alone was $360.70!



1920-06-09 San Francisco Chronicle (page 17)
Testimony from Government witnesses tending to show that other members of the Dempsey family besides Jack Dempsey were contributing to the family support during 1917, and indications by the defense that the interpretations of the words "mainly dependent" appearing in the draft questionnaire will be an important line of argument marked the opening yesterday of the trial of Jack Dempsey, heavy-weight champion, before Federal Judge Maurice T. Dooling on charges of draft evasion.

...

Further answers in the questionaire were to the effect that he had worked at the trade of carpenter and was an expert miner as well as boxer; that he had earned $2500 during the preceding year; that his wife was "sickly" and had never been employed, and that he had dependent upon him wife, parents, widowed sister and her two children, contributing to the support of each of these, $20 a month.

ELDER DEMPSEY DISPUTED

Seeking to refute the declaration in the questionnaire that Hiram Dempsey, father of the pugilist, had earned only $300 at odd jobs during the year previous H. S. McCann, auditor of Salt Lake City, was called to produce the Salt Lake City pay roll, which showed that the elder Dempsey had been paid $472.38 for services as a laborer during the time in question.

Mrs. Freda Gibson, owner of the house in Salt Lake City in which the Dempseys lived, was questioned as to the rent.

"Hiram Dempsey earned the money, gave it to Mrs. Dempsey and she paid it to me," she said.

A. J. Auerbach of Salt Lake City, in whose hair goods establishment Mrs. Effie Clarkson, Jack Dempsey's sister, worked from 1916 until recently, testified that Mrs. Clarkson was paid from $10 to $12 a week.

"Wasn't she ill and unable to work most of the time during 1917?" asked John W. Preston, representing Dempsey.

"About half the time," answered Auerbach.

MRS. DEMPSEY'S INCOME

E. H. Butts of Hungtington, W. Va., an attorney, stated that during 1917 he was conducting a lawsuit in Mrs. Dempsey's interests which resulted in her receiving about $700.

The defense brought out statements that she did not receive this money until the spring of 1918, and sought to show that she had been obliged to spend a large part of it for her expenses during the suit.

...




1920-06-12 The Seattle Daily Times (page 9)
"Ever since Jack was 18 he took care of me and always saw that I had everything I needed, said the mother. "I was wholly dependent upon him and I never wanted for anything that he could provide. And the money he sent me was money that I used to buy food and things for the house, to buy clothes for the children of my widowed daughter, to pay doctor bills for my other children and to keep them from want. Jack did all that and he often gave me all he had.

Lavich With Winnings.

"Jack did not earn much at first, but when his earnings increased he gave me more and more money. After the Flynn fight in 1917 he gave me $1,000 in cash. After he won from Fulton in 1918 he bought a $4,500 house for me, and after he beat Willard he bought me another house that cost $20,000. From the time he was eighteen until this day he always provided for me--he was my only support. After every fight he would give me sums of money, which I used to keep the house going and to buy things for the other children.

"In about three years Jack gave to me in gifts or in money about $37,000."

 

given the information above if dempsey did throw the fight for some extra bucks, i could see why

 

Well, to a skeptic, there really is nothing substantial here. Drawing conclusions about Auerbach is more a reflection of his 1920 quotes.

But I personally find the 1920 Chicago Tribune article unsatisfying. It impresses me as "slippery" writing with the key "proof" provided by the quotes from Auerbach weasel insinuations rather than direct statements.

For example, Auerbach is quoted about how hard up Dempsey and his family were (which seems at odds with the evidence provided at the trial) and then we get this quote--"I tell you, Al, If I had my life to live over, I'd never do that thing again."

The context leads the reader to jump to the conclusion that the Flynn fight was fixed, but "that thing" might refer to some other "sin" altogether.

I say this only about the excerpts from the Tribune article I have read. I hope sometime someone puts the entire relevant article up for study.

*The evidence provided from Senya's excerpts and other sources reinforce that $500 seems a small amount to tempt Dempsey into taking a dive in 1917. The downside of hurting his drawing power would seem to way outweigh getting a quick $500. Hard to see it being in any promoter's interest either.

 

bump

 

500 bucks in 1917 is like 10,000 dollars today.

 

Excellent poster Old Fogey:good

 

People on bot sides of the argument, miss the main point.

The gross lack of certainty, either way.

Where this all leaves us, is that we simply don't know.

Not exactly convenient for either sides propaganda campaign!

 

Isn't there actually newspaper coverage from the fight stating that Dempsey was iced ? Out for over thirty seconds ?

 

Given the fact that Dempsey, a complete unknown then {before Jack Kearns] came into his life, was helping to support his parents and siblings, is it hard to believe that Dempsey took a dive for much needed money ?. During divorce proceedings his estranged wife testified that Dempsey DID throw that fight for that very reason. What would she gain by lying under oath ?...
Truly we can never be certain one way or the other...But what irks me is some Dempsey detractors always bring up this
questionable ko at the hands of Jim Flynn to belittle the great ability of the later prime Jack Dempsey that captured the hearts of American fight fans in the 1920s and made the Manassa Mauler the greatest ring attraction of alltime....And we must remember one year later with the guidance of Jack Kearns ,
Dempsey flattened Fireman Jim Flynn in one round....
Either fights had no bearing on how great a heavyweight Jack Dempsey was, based on these two bouts...

 

Why is it so hard to believe he was knocked out?

 

Personally I have it 60/40% that Dempsey took a dive for needed money as he was aiding his parents and siblings with
whom he was very protective. But what sways me the most is his
litigating wife testified under oath that Dempsey threw the fight for food money. I can't understand why she would fib ? At any rate whether the bout was legit or not, my contention is that this bout in question has no bearings on Dempsey's place in the Heavyweight pantheon, one way or another...After Dempsey met a "real" manager Jack Kearns, his whole career turned around...

 

Burt,

off posts 213 and 214 above Dempsey was able to borrow money from Auerbach from 1916 on. He eventually paid Auerbach back over $6000. That is a lot of money for that day, and Auerbach wasn't paid back until after Toledo. He apparently gave the money to Dempsey with no schedule for repayment.

This certainly doesn't sound like Dempsey was a man who should have been that hard up for money.

Dempsey was far from a complete unknown in Salt Lake City off the fight reports. He was the local hero. They had special trains bringing in fans from down state. The gate was $5000. One ringside reporter wrote of "thousands" at the fight.

Some of this "poor" stuff just doesn't ring completely true for 1917.