Five Frazier Missed As Champ

No, none of them beat Joe.

 

Oh, brother. :roll:

 

Daniles and Stander were rather poor title defenses in 1972. Stander managed to buckle Frazier knees, and I read Frazier did not look his normal smokin' self vs Daniels.


Below are the annual Ring Magazine ratings for 1970, issued early in 1971

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Below are the annual Ring Magazine ratings for 1971, issued early in 1972

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Below are the annual Ring Magazine ratings for 1972, issued in early 1973

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Every name on the list is better than Daniels and Stander with the possible exception of Roman, Urtain, and Bodell.


Lyle, Foster, Garcia, and Norton would have been much better choices, but they would also be very dangerous choices. In time Frazier lost to Ali and Foreman, so his management might have opted take little risk until meeting them.

 

Ok, in 1971 Frazier has beat his number one contender in a superfight. He has cleaned out already because he's beat 40% of the top ten. Frazier beat 4 of the curent top ten.

1972 he beat Daniels and Stander over Ali, the outstanding contender who he had already beat. The next highest rated contender was Foreman, but who had george beat outside of Chuvalo who Frazier had already beat a better version of?

For all anyone can say about Norton, Lyle and Mac Foster Now, with hindsight they did not mean anymore in 1972 than say old Floyd Patterson, Jimmy Ellis and Ernie Terrell who were also rated at that time. Taking fights with unproven Foster, Norton and Lyle then would have been no bigger than fights with Terrell, Patterson and Ellis. The Next year FRazier did take Foreman anyway. So what?

Daniels and Stander look weak now but in 1972 on paper they were as proven as Lyle, Norton and Foster were. They were not considered in Jimmy Ellis, Ali and Foreman bracket. Even though a decline had set in after the FOTC there is a real sence that Ali was beating the best available contenders FOR Frazier. Young George Foreman, more because of his ranking rather than anything else was the only spanner in the works preventing an Ali v Frazier rematch.

 

Good question ... He destroys Mac, Jose, Ken ...Ron has a tiny shot but lacked the speed to keep the prime Frazier off ... Sonny by 68 or 69 was way over forty so even though Joe was made for him anywhere near his prime I dont see it ...

 

In early '71, Foreman was rated #2, even though he turned pro only two years before, and had one real significant win over George Chuvalo. Lyle was still young and he really wasn't a big threat for Frazier, Liston was dead, Norton was first rated in early '73 when Joe wasn't the champion anymore. As far as I'm concerned, Joe had a short reign so I can't really blame him for taking on Daniels and Stander when he already pretty much cleaned up the division to win his belt.

 

But we are only talking about 1972. Up until then Frazier had already beat Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Bonnavena and the unbeaten Ali ...that's the whole A-list up until that point.

Daniels and Stander were fights Joe took to stay busy BECAUSE Ali was beating all the top names in 1972 and Frazier had already beat Ali. Since TFOTC Ali beat Ellis, Mathis, blin, Mac Foster, Chuvalo, Quary, blue Lewis, Patterson and bob Foster on an incredible run. There was not much left that Frazier could pick.

Foreman was rated but needed to build his reputation to demand a shot any earlier. No way was George trumping anything former champ ALi was doing in 1972. All that got foreman a shot ahead of ALi the following year 1973 was ALi flunking the Norton fight, it sure wasnt because Foreman was beating 4-15 Terry sorrell!!!

Terrell, Patterson and Ellis were not exciting anyone in 1972 and they were all better known than Foster, Lyle and Norton were that year.

 

For all anyone can say about Norton, Lyle and Mac Foster Now, with hindsight they did not mean anymore in 1972 than say old Floyd Patterson, Jimmy Ellis and Ernie Terrell who were also rated at that time. Taking fights with unproven Foster, Norton and Lyle then would have been no bigger than fights with Terrell, Patterson and Ellis. The Next year FRazier did take Foreman anyway. So what?

Daniels and Stander look weak now but in 1972 on paper they were as proven as Lyle, Norton and Foster were. They were not considered in Jimmy Ellis, Ali and Foreman bracket. Even though a decline had set in after the FOTC there is a real sence that Ali was beating the best available contenders FOR Frazier. Young George Foreman, more because of his ranking rather than anything else was the only spanner in the works preventing an Ali v Frazier rematch.[/QUOTE]



I agree. Lyle first significant name win was against Buster Mathis in September 72 and was knocked out by Quarry just a little over months later.

Mac Foster had been knocked by Quarry in June of 1970 and he didn't fight anyone of significance, save a very shot Zora Foley, until losing to Ali in 72.

Norton imo was a non-issue due to being a friend and stable mate who was on the rise but likely understood his likely fate from sparring with Smokin' Joe.

 

Sonny was shot as fighter, not to mention deceased by the time of the FOTC.

Jose Luis Garcia.....Joe hadn't gotten to the G's yet. and I don't think anyone was clamoring for it.

 

That's how I see it as well. I think he was just waiting for the big money rematch with Ali. Being a HW swarmer, he wasn't going to produce four to six defenses a year like Louis, Ali and Charles. Like Marciano, two a year was about his limit. He was just looking to hold onto the title until Ali worked his way back to a second challenge.

Also, Joe crushed Bob Foster in two. Given the hindsight of what actually happened between them, it's easy to forget that Maxim, Moore and Conn came in as credible challengers for the HW title, and that the very next LHW Champion to challenge for the big title was successful, paving the way for RJJ, Toney and Moorer. Smoke-BF may have been an easy defense for Joe, but Bob was so tall and dominantly lethal at 175 that he seemed a rational enough challenger for Frazier with his height and reach advantages.

He did defend against his previous toughest opponent by giving Bonavena a shot in their December 1968 rematch, improving significantly from Joe's showing in their first match.

Following the FOTC, he was defending strictly for the money, had nothing left to prove, and the chip was off his shoulder. If the money wasn't there, then easy defenses it was. He was ready to be taken.

Prior to the FOTC, the most interesting contender out there he didn't take on was the deadly punching Mac Foster, but Jerry Quarry burst that bubble, in part with the Frazier template of numerous left hooks to the body in June 1970. Mac the Knife was clearly the best established primed banger among the ranks of contenders in 1970, and Jerry indicated that this may have been the hardest puncher he experienced competing against during his prime. [He didn't even know Shavers had hit him until viewing the videotape the following day, but sure told Dunphy after stopping Mac that, "He can hit like heck man! WHEW!"]

Leotis Martin also wanted Frazier after KTFOing Liston, but a retinal tear forever scotched that dream.

Patterson after Bonavena might have been a salable post FOTC challenger for Joe. He had a faster left hook, and didn't gas, always maintaining great conditioning, and a challenge of Frazier might have been a suitable career finale for Floyd, a last good payday. Because of his hand speed, skills, stamina, low posture, and veteran experience, he might have given Frazier more headaches than commonly supposed before Joe got to his chin.

 

McV, I don't believe for a second that Frazier would have ever been complacent against Garcia after Jose bombed out Norton, simply because Ken was Joe's friend and sparring partner. In his rematch with a declining Garcia years later, Norton ruined him, and knocked him out with hooks to the body in perhaps Kenny's most damaging display of body punching on footage. Frazier loved hooking much taller opponents to the body, and I think he would be licking his chops at the chance to look good doing what he did best. And he'd be extremely mindful of how dangerous Garcia could be, due to his buddy Ken's reminders about his own experience with Jose. Garcia had a similar stature to Bob Foster, a very comfortable situation for Joe. [In fact, at 6'4" Garcia weighed 188 for his knockout of Norton, about the same official height and reach as BF for his challenge of Frazier.]