Fixed Fight series 1.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Ipay4leavingNot, Jul 3, 2013.


  1. Ipay4leavingNot

    Ipay4leavingNot Active Member Full Member

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    This is part 1 of 2 of my fixed fight series. In it, I talk about my awareness of fixed fights in the 1980s that most boxing observers don't know, some would rather keep secret and certain fans will probably get angry and mad for me saying it, but it is the truth.

    THE BACKGROUND

    During the 1980s, there were a certain set of fighters, fighting out of Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. To give some background, Caesars Palace was ran by the mafia during this period. I knew of several very good fighters who went down to New York or out to Vegas to try to become fighters and a few months later these guys would return.

     
  2. Lord Tywin

    Lord Tywin Guest

    Pfffttt... Whatever. Welcome back Pepe/Duce...

    By the way. A story needs to have an actual structure, you know, like a beginning, a middle, and an ending. A loose string of meandering musings and half realized tall tales does not make a story.
     
  3. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  4. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I actually enjoyed this a lot. I often wonder why it's so hard to prove a fight's fixed. I think mainly it's because the legal system isn't interested.
     
  5. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Think about it: how much would someone have to wager to be able to pay Duran $31 million to throw a fight? That's about four times Duran's purse, and more than twice as much as the combined purses.

    I don't know what the odds were, but you'd have to be risking at least that much to have a chance to break even, and you can't bet on a promisary note in Vegas ... you have to bring the cash, AND you would have to spread it around to all the different casinos because no one is taking a bet that big. Oh, and the odds would shift sharply with all that money on one side because the house (the casinos) would need to attract a LOT of money on the other side to get it evened out, less they could lose that much on one event.

    In fact, the gaming commission investigates when heavy, heavy sums of money come down on one side. They have suspended betting on certain games in some cases simply because someone was spreading around tens of thousands, much less millions.

    And if the mob owns the casinos ... and the mob is fixing the fight for Leonard to win ... who, exactly, is betting the tens of millions on Duran? No one in Panama has that kind of money to throw around, it's one of the poorest countries on the planet. And if they're betting at casinos ... they're betting against themselves because, according to the OP, they OWN the casinos.

    So show me where the odds shifted -- happens all the time in football betting where the line moves because all the money is going on one side.

    And if you're paying Duran to throw the fight, him quitting on such a grand stage mid-round, just walking away, isn't going to get it. You're paying for a decisive result -- what if the local commission determined that the ending was fishy and declared it a no contest? No, he'd have to get KOed and leave no doubt.

    Now I can see Duran blowing through several million -- his purse -- over a few years -- but this puts about $40 million in his back pocket from that fight. How on earth would he spend that much (in Panama, where you could buy a mansion for a fraction of what it would cost in the U.S.) so as to be broke enough that he needed to keep on fighting so long.

    It makes no financial sense whatsoever.

    And if pretty much every boxer in Las Vegas is actually a bank robber, show me some reports of banks being knocked over on such a frequent basis out there with no one being caught. And if they're pulling robberies, doesn't it stand to reason that some of them -- enough of them to show a pattern -- would get caught? I mean, these aren't all hardened criminals. The OP implies that they are just work-a-day boxers trying to make a go of it as professionals, so one would have to think their skills as hardened criminals aren't so sharp as to avoid detection every time. So how about a list of 1980s Vegas-based boxers who were convicted of robbery (especially bank robbery).
     
  6. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'll do some research and get back to you in five years.
     
  7. Ipay4leavingNot

    Ipay4leavingNot Active Member Full Member

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    There is alot of technical gambling terms you are using that I do not fully understand and won't pretend to.

    The mafia could still make money even if the odds shifted. It may explain why Leonard was favoured despite losing the first fight in a UD (for all we know Duran could have started out the favourite). And given that Floyd mayweather bets 6 million on the heat, I am not sure if your claim that betting millions will somehow screw up the odds or is more or less impossible and he is just 1 guy. The mafia aren't going to lose money if they have that kind of money to make major betting payout. I'd really be speculating on how they figured they would make money and even if they lost money gambling, they wouldn't be the first time someone lost money in Vegas.
    I'd assume it be less if it started shifting but this was one of the biggest fights around.

    And maybe you are right, maybe the Mafia didn't make as much money as they expected. But between Duran-Leonard 3 fights and the fights that came out of that, the mafia would have made their money back hand over fist. Leonard made over $100 million over barely 40 fights. Most of those millions came after duran 2 (he made around 1 million off bentiez) but $10 million of duran 1. Leonard was 27-0 making $10 million a fight. Mafia figured keep this guy winning for at least 10 fights. In the rematch Leonard was cut down to $7 million. The mafia understood a loosing fighter doesn't make money even in a good fight. You also have to bare in mind, when a boxer makes $10 million, that is usually a fraction of the total earnings. Most of the money is going to the promoters and the managers and the boxer receives closer to 1/3rd of the total revenues if he reaches that high level.

    If Leonard total purses are over $100 million the actual total earnings might be closer to 250-300 million, promoters and managers (the mafia) likely took a healthy skim from that. And almost all of that came post duran fight. What's 31 million from 10 fights generating 300 million? Because had Leonard lost to Duran a 2nd time in a row his career would probably be dead, especially with so few fights. His career would look more like benitiez (as heis earnings would) if he lost that 2nd fight.

    If I was a mafiosa and had a fighter who just had 1 fighter he couldn't make it look close enough, what is $31 million to $200 in total earnings? 200 -31 = 169 million, seems to make sense to me.

    Whose to say the mafia didn't have insiders or pay guys in the gaming commission to look the other way, it wasn't until the 80s when the fbi really swept through and tried to clean it up. I don't know for certain and am purely speculating on the gambling aspects of it. I am just using reason and logic as to how it would make financial sense.

    You should also be aware the mafia people are really slimy slim balls. You may not know who they are until they wave a gun in your face, don't forget what Tyson said about people coming at your money. The mafia might "bring in" a legit investor to buy out half or more the business and behind his back bet at their own casino Leonard will win a huge bet, normally as you say a casino would STOP taking bets, but since it is half mafia controlled filled with mafia employees it might not and get the rubber stamp and the payment since the legit investor is not in a position to argue when a guy in a limo puts a gun under his chin. Now they might not necessarily use a gun, they might take the guy out and get him really drunk, send him out of town, pretend there is an important meeting he has to go to, or find other ways to distract who ever is suppose to stop the bull**** shenanigans. This is the kind of **** that they do, normal people do not even think of these terms. So I don't get surprised by the skepticism. This is why Tyson doesn't mention the specific stories of how guys try to shake him down people wouldn't believe it.

    I don't know the specific of how the gambling end might turn out, I am just speculating. It could be how I mentioned, it could be a different way, they could have placed bets at other casinos, or even their own to screw their own investors or even banks. I can see them using their payment money as collateral to take out a loan and then disappearing that money by betting against themselves. When the bank comes to collect guess what, asset all gone. Mobsters were good at making money disappear in Vegas.

    Panama is poor yes, but back then Panama was a place where alot of criminals and non criminals were hiding money because of the banking secrecy, money laundering was not a crime, you could show up with a suit case with $31 million at a bank and no one would bat an eye or ask where it came from. There was nothing unusual about this at the time.

    You are saying alot of what ifs, I can only speculate on the betting/gambling end of things. I am not even sure if that was where the money was made the most. But if it was, again you say what if the commission would call off the bet, well what if they didn't what if someone in the commission was paid off or not paying close attention. For the record its listed as a tko. And from my knowledge Duran WAS suppose to take a dive but had too much pride to do it.

    There is another guy on here, a manager, I read his post, he talks about when 1 guy tried to pay off another fighter, as soon as he got punched in the face he lost it and beat up the guy he agreed to throw the fight to. That is the kind of **** that gets you killed if the person paying you is a mobster.

    If Bob Arum was caught paying $125,000 to commissioner to improve his fighters rating in p4p, and his offices were raided by the fbi for suspected match fixing (they actually have to have some evidence to show to a judge to search you with a warrant). Whose to say a mafia member wasn't paying money to get whoever job it was to clamp down on dirty business to look the other way?

    I think you are looking for a neet cookie cutter story. We like to believe certain things can't happen, maybe it is from watching too much tv, or too much movies and the good guy always win. Sometimes the bad guy wins and sometimes he gets away. The stories don't always make sense in real life and often are incomplete.

    Well how much did Duran blow through from the other fights? If he truly is broke, I have no clue to be honest. He must have earned $20-30 million over his career, and anyone who could blow through 20 or 30 million could probably blow through another 31 million. I mean Tyson earned several times that and he was broke shortly after retiring, same for Holyfield. Cost of living in Panama isn't moderate, but if you are living the high life it is MORE expensive than America because then you are buying American goods at American prices PLUS import cost (taxes, duties, fees, cost of delivery, etc.).

    I was looking at private planes on the luxury side they run from $20-60+ million. One can EASILY blow money, and if you don't buy the plane and charter it you can spend 50k on a one way trip. if you've never rolled in those circles you don't understand how easy it is to blow $30 million. $30 million is one private jet that carries 8 people, not counting the operating cost it takes to maintain the plane, and the staff.

    The same people who fight, fights where there is 1.1 million viewers on ppv at 29.99 a piece and take less than a million to fight are the same ones who find ways to blow any money that comes in their hand.

    You also have to bear in mind Panama was invaded by the US in '89, I have no clue how this may have affected his financial situation.

    I do not know if he fought because he needed the money or because he wanted to. Duran was old school, you don't win so many fights, fighting for money.

    To normal people blowing $31-50-70 etc million seems nuts. But athletes and lottery winners have no problem doing this on a regular basis.

    No, not every boxer is a bank robber, there are alot of place you can rob other than just banks. And it wasn't just banks, old ladies, gas stores, liquor stores, the guy walking down a dark alley at night, loan sharking, shaking down guys in borderline illegal businesses like gambling dens. I don't know what the new methods are today, but I can tell what it was in the 80s.

    I already explained why alot of them didn't get caught, but some of them like Sonny Liston or Jeff Austin DID get caught and got caught alot they did. Some of them like mike tyson or teddy atlas seemingly got away with it.

    Boxers are some of the preferred criminals because well, they can run long distances, knock people out and beat them up until they do not remember what happened. 1980s we didn't have cameras every corner like today, you put 2 boxer with a gun, ski mask and gloves, let them go rob a store and park a car a good half mile away, no one is going to catch them. The boxers themselves aren't hardened criminals, the people sending them to go rob, beat, steal and shoot ARE. If Liston didn't beat up a cop that one time he probably would never have been arrested all them times.

    I can't say what scams managers and trainers are running to keep themselves solvent in the 10s' but if a guy who works part time in a manual labour job and boxes on the side, which is what your typical boxer looks like (only those in the top 10 maybe 15 or so are really fighting full time). How many trainers you think have multiple boxers in the top 10 with the thousands and thousands of gyms across america? When #98 ranked no name part boxer part welder goes to the pen for armed robbery no one gives a damn, it ain't published and we don't know about it. How about you go to your local gym and see how much boxers been to jail, or go to your local prison and see how much boxers are in there.
     
  8. TheSouthpaw

    TheSouthpaw Champion Full Member

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  9. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Wagers the size you are talking about are not made in sports books, where they would shift the odds and leave paper trails.
    They are made privately between high-rollers.

    Sports books are for the tourist trade and the working stiffs.
     
  10. willcross

    willcross Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I say Hatton got a short count vs Pacquaio. :yep
     
  11. RockyValdez

    RockyValdez Active Member Full Member

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    Ive gotten dumber reading this thread.
     
  12. fatcity

    fatcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Get off the bong!:nut
     
  13. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I do agree that 31 million sounds like a ridiculous amount of overhead to invest in a scam...12 or 15 million would be more believable. But I do think that boxing is probably much more corrupt than we realize. It is not sanctioned the way other sports are, in terms of gambling, rules, general conduct. But as far as I know, only LaMotta-Fox is the only fight ever proven to be fixed...correct me if I'm wrong. That's probably due to fear about coming forward, plus I think a lack of interest by the government or general public in cleaning it up.
     
  14. Lord Tywin

    Lord Tywin Guest

    31 million? all boxing people are bank robbers and mafiosi? Basically everything this guy is saying qualifies him as someone who is likely wearing a tinfoil cap. Ive heard some crazy conspiracy theories related to boxing in my day but this one is ridiculous.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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